Comments on: Strange Doves (Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying About This Missile and Worry About Proliferation Instead) http://freekorea.us/2006/06/23/strange-doves-or-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-about-this-missile-and-worry-about-proliferation-instead/ Tue, 22 May 2012 09:51:16 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: AsiaPundit » Blog Archive » Clinton Era Consensus on N Korea http://freekorea.us/2006/06/23/strange-doves-or-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-about-this-missile-and-worry-about-proliferation-instead/comment-page-1/#comment-1985 AsiaPundit » Blog Archive » Clinton Era Consensus on N Korea Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:19:55 +0000 http://freekorea.us/?p=5448#comment-1985 <strong>Strange Doves (Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying About This Missile and Worry About Proliferation Instead)</strong> [...] UP COMMENT: AUTHOR: Zhang Fei EMAIL: robert_rosenthal@hotmail.com I'll have to agree here. I think the problem with Uncle Sam providing security for East Asia is that run into a real prisoner's dilemma-style free-rider problem. Everyone protected by the security umbrella tries to make any security problem posed by a regional malefactor a problem between Uncle Sam and that regional player. The way I look at it, we've been a little too aggressive in cocooning the region from the real threats that exist. Our ties to countries in the region might be enhanced if our so-called allies saw the whites of the tiger's eyes every once in a while before we jumped in. COMMENT: AUTHOR: James J. Na EMAIL: jamesjna@hotmail.com That has to be calibrated very carefully. If we became too neglectful, the erstwhile ally may decide to bandwagon with the said tiger for his own safety. I agree, however, that one of the problems of American hegemony has been that the junior partners have forgotten what it means to be junior partners. In other words, we have been an exceptionally benevolent hegemon. Some of our allies have forgotten what it is like to be "allied" to Germany, Russia or Japan. COMMENT: AUTHOR: Zhang Fei EMAIL: robert_rosenthal@hotmail.com JN: <i>If we became too neglectful, the erstwhile ally may decide to bandwagon with the said tiger for his own safety.</i> Bandwagoning's not going to happen if the terms are too onerous. Remember, they always have the option of coming back to Uncle Sam. And let's face it, we can live with anything outside of the outright annexation of our "allies". COMMENT: AUTHOR: James J. Na EMAIL: jamesjna@hotmail.com <blockquote>they always have the option of coming back to Uncle Sam.</blockquote>That might actually encourage defection.<blockquote>And let’s face it, we can live with anything outside of the outright annexation of our “allies”.</blockquote>Hey, hey, we don't like that kind of defeatist talk here at TKL! Strange Doves (Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying About This Missile and Worry About Proliferation Instead)

[...] UP

COMMENT:
AUTHOR: Zhang Fei
EMAIL: robert_rosenthal@hotmail.com
I’ll have to agree here. I think the problem with Uncle Sam providing security for East Asia is that run into a real prisoner’s dilemma-style free-rider problem. Everyone protected by the security umbrella tries to make any security problem posed by a regional malefactor a problem between Uncle Sam and that regional player. The way I look at it, we’ve been a little too aggressive in cocooning the region from the real threats that exist. Our ties to countries in the region might be enhanced if our so-called allies saw the whites of the tiger’s eyes every once in a while before we jumped in.

COMMENT:
AUTHOR: James J. Na
EMAIL: jamesjna@hotmail.com
That has to be calibrated very carefully. If we became too neglectful, the erstwhile ally may decide to bandwagon with the said tiger for his own safety.

I agree, however, that one of the problems of American hegemony has been that the junior partners have forgotten what it means to be junior partners. In other words, we have been an exceptionally benevolent hegemon. Some of our allies have forgotten what it is like to be “allied” to Germany, Russia or Japan.

COMMENT:
AUTHOR: Zhang Fei
EMAIL: robert_rosenthal@hotmail.com
JN: If we became too neglectful, the erstwhile ally may decide to bandwagon with the said tiger for his own safety.

Bandwagoning’s not going to happen if the terms are too onerous. Remember, they always have the option of coming back to Uncle Sam. And let’s face it, we can live with anything outside of the outright annexation of our “allies”.

COMMENT:
AUTHOR: James J. Na
EMAIL: jamesjna@hotmail.com

they always have the option of coming back to Uncle Sam.

That might actually encourage defection.

And let’s face it, we can live with anything outside of the outright annexation of our “allies”.

Hey, hey, we don’t like that kind of defeatist talk here at TKL!

]]> By: The Korea Liberator » Kim Jong Il Becomes a Liability for China http://freekorea.us/2006/06/23/strange-doves-or-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-about-this-missile-and-worry-about-proliferation-instead/comment-page-1/#comment-1984 The Korea Liberator » Kim Jong Il Becomes a Liability for China Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:33:38 +0000 http://freekorea.us/?p=5448#comment-1984 <strong>Strange Doves (Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying About This Missile and Worry About Proliferation Instead)</strong> [...] North Korea’s extortion-seeking exhibition of a Taepodong II missile is a study in unintended consequences. Last week, Clinton alumni — those on whose watch North Korea went nuclear and fired a missile over Japan — called for bombing it on the launch pad. In the following days, Republicans alternatively urged calm and direct talks (read: payoff) with the North Koreans … and also, in one case, bombing. Fortunately, those ideas are non-starters. A first strike probably wouldn’t escalate to Korean War II, but it would mark a potentially irreversible political setback for U.S. interests in the region, thus compromising the more urgent effort against North Korean proliferation and the greater long-term effort against Chinese hegemony. Talks? We can expect those to accomplish about as much as the myriad negotiators, proposals, and agreements, signed and otherwise, have accomplished since 1992: bupkes. The answer here will have to follow the difficult path of patient and wise statecraft that correctly identifies and deals with the greater threat: a regime that is irredeemably committed to acquiring and trafficking weapons of mass murder, uninhibited by the regard for human life on which peace-making must be based. [...] Strange Doves (Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying About This Missile and Worry About Proliferation Instead)

[...] North Korea’s extortion-seeking exhibition of a Taepodong II missile is a study in unintended consequences. Last week, Clinton alumni — those on whose watch North Korea went nuclear and fired a missile over Japan — called for bombing it on the launch pad. In the following days, Republicans alternatively urged calm and direct talks (read: payoff) with the North Koreans … and also, in one case, bombing. Fortunately, those ideas are non-starters. A first strike probably wouldn’t escalate to Korean War II, but it would mark a potentially irreversible political setback for U.S. interests in the region, thus compromising the more urgent effort against North Korean proliferation and the greater long-term effort against Chinese hegemony. Talks? We can expect those to accomplish about as much as the myriad negotiators, proposals, and agreements, signed and otherwise, have accomplished since 1992: bupkes. The answer here will have to follow the difficult path of patient and wise statecraft that correctly identifies and deals with the greater threat: a regime that is irredeemably committed to acquiring and trafficking weapons of mass murder, uninhibited by the regard for human life on which peace-making must be based. [...]

]]> By: The Korea Liberator » Simple, Neat, and Wrong: Lugar and Hagel Go Wobbly on North Korea http://freekorea.us/2006/06/23/strange-doves-or-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-about-this-missile-and-worry-about-proliferation-instead/comment-page-1/#comment-1983 The Korea Liberator » Simple, Neat, and Wrong: Lugar and Hagel Go Wobbly on North Korea Sun, 25 Jun 2006 22:59:10 +0000 http://freekorea.us/?p=5448#comment-1983 <strong>Strange Doves (Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying About This Missile and Worry About Proliferation Instead)</strong> [...] [With a tip of my hat to H.L. Mencken.] Now that Democrats are suggesting that we bomb Kim Jong Il’s ballistic showpiece on the launching pad, we only need one more really dumb idea to make the role reversal complete. “It would be advisable to bring about a much greater intensification of diplomacy, and this may involve direct talks between the United States and North Korea,” said [Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Richard] Lugar, R-Ind. . . . [...] Strange Doves (Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying About This Missile and Worry About Proliferation Instead)

[...] [With a tip of my hat to H.L. Mencken.] Now that Democrats are suggesting that we bomb Kim Jong Il’s ballistic showpiece on the launching pad, we only need one more really dumb idea to make the role reversal complete. “It would be advisable to bring about a much greater intensification of diplomacy, and this may involve direct talks between the United States and North Korea,” said [Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Richard] Lugar, R-Ind. . . . [...]

]]> By: malpaso http://freekorea.us/2006/06/23/strange-doves-or-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-about-this-missile-and-worry-about-proliferation-instead/comment-page-1/#comment-1982 malpaso Sun, 25 Jun 2006 02:47:53 +0000 http://freekorea.us/?p=5448#comment-1982 wow my spelling is bad. wow my spelling is bad.

]]> By: malpaso http://freekorea.us/2006/06/23/strange-doves-or-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-about-this-missile-and-worry-about-proliferation-instead/comment-page-1/#comment-1981 malpaso Sun, 25 Jun 2006 02:45:45 +0000 http://freekorea.us/?p=5448#comment-1981 Actually, as Joshua explained, that may be the worst decision. NK's recent moves have everyone who wasn't previously against them...lining up against them. This is something that could be used in the US's favor. If we do strike now, we'd lose all the favor and become the a-hole once again. South Korea would side with the North, like they were a month ago. China would swing back to their little buddy's side. Russia would go back to waffling. Unfortuntely, most of the world wouldn't understand. It would be the US once again striking against a sovreign nation for doing something that is within their rights - test launching a missle. Right now, North Korea is making a mistake, and like the quote at the top says, don't stop them. Let them do it. It won't get them what they want, and will get us more of what we want. I too find it odd that Democrats are calling for a strike now. Especially when it seems that it's the wrong thing to do. Finally, China, Russia, SK, Japan and the US are on the same side against NK and now they say destroy all that? Strange. Actually, as Joshua explained, that may be the worst decision. NK’s recent moves have everyone who wasn’t previously against them…lining up against them. This is something that could be used in the US’s favor. If we do strike now, we’d lose all the favor and become the a-hole once again. South Korea would side with the North, like they were a month ago. China would swing back to their little buddy’s side. Russia would go back to waffling. Unfortuntely, most of the world wouldn’t understand. It would be the US once again striking against a sovreign nation for doing something that is within their rights – test launching a missle. Right now, North Korea is making a mistake, and like the quote at the top says, don’t stop them. Let them do it. It won’t get them what they want, and will get us more of what we want.

I too find it odd that Democrats are calling for a strike now. Especially when it seems that it’s the wrong thing to do. Finally, China, Russia, SK, Japan and the US are on the same side against NK and now they say destroy all that? Strange.

]]> By: Duke http://freekorea.us/2006/06/23/strange-doves-or-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-about-this-missile-and-worry-about-proliferation-instead/comment-page-1/#comment-1980 Duke Sat, 24 Jun 2006 03:20:52 +0000 http://freekorea.us/?p=5448#comment-1980 To attack and destroy while in ground with swarm of proven Tomahawks with guranteed success? Best option IMHO. Best defense might be suprise attack and most of the world will support and understand US actions. DPRK commies will do more barking but will not resort to all out attack although it's conceivable that they might launch sime Scuds agains USFK bases as retaliation. Danger is of course US response and out of control escalations... Intercepting may be risky due to unproven tecnnology not to mention rather poor record of the land launched ABMs. It'll be boon for commies should US fail to intercept and embarassing for US to boot. I find it ironic that liberals from Clinton era are supporting rather hardline pre-emptive strike. To attack and destroy while in ground with swarm of proven Tomahawks with guranteed success? Best option IMHO. Best defense might be suprise attack and most of the world will support and understand US actions.

DPRK commies will do more barking but will not resort to all out attack although it’s conceivable that they might launch sime Scuds agains USFK bases as retaliation. Danger is of course US response and out of control escalations…

Intercepting may be risky due to unproven tecnnology not to mention rather poor record of the land launched ABMs. It’ll be boon for commies should US fail to intercept and embarassing for US to boot.

I find it ironic that liberals from Clinton era are supporting rather hardline pre-emptive strike.

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