No, and like Joshua, I’m no longer interested.

I’m sorry, i live in a tiny city-state, a little red dot and has been very protected since young. Now that i’m older, i want to explore some of my limits and break through them.

What I was saying was that you sound a lot similar to a type of thinking that is typical of some college-educated people in the West – at least in the United States.

They have been trained that “everything is relative” and that they can’t criticize anybody. Well, they have been trained that they can criticize the United States and white, male society, but they should never criticize “the Other”.

Most American college students hear this and move on. Some students absorb it as a life philosophy.

In the case of the Chinese students, i wonder why the South Korean Government let them off like that…..

Because the Chinese government suspended Olympic activities related to Korean sports — and other Chinese pressure.

The Chinese government has shown over the last 5 to 10 years that it is very good at reminded South Korea how much money South Korea makes in China. They thump Korea in the head when Beijing thinks Korea is being unreasonable.

On Hitler —

Everything has a reason. So what?

Bad people have a reason for doing horrible things.

At what point in your thinking does the fact every action has a reason begin to lesson the criticism of that act?

I don’t care if Hitler’s father beat him everyday and kept him locked in a closet until he was 25.

I have no problem hating Hitler and hating Nazis.

At what point does it become necessary for you to translate hatred of Hitler into hatred of all Germany and all Germans – including Germans born after World War II?

(Reference: “Don’t i have a very good reason to hate the Japanese? I do. But i don’t.”)

My point here is that many of you think that i’m some ignorant little kid who doesn’t know what governments do.

I thought we were talking about what the Chinese protesters in Seoul did?

I had no guess as to your age or knowledge.

more later

It’s okay if you find me a morally repulsive person or whatsoever. end of discussion.

1)Joshua, i’m not saying that ‘it’s discriminatory to protect the safety of your own people to express their views peacefully? It’s discriminatory to criticize people who behave like complete assholes? ‘What i am saying is that it is discriminatory to believe that the Chinese can’t do anything that will be up to a satisfactory standard. Dude, you misunderstood me. So all that you said that has nothing to do with what i meant.

Singaporean style caning was little more than a “good spanking” when in fact it has been described as “torture” by human rights organizations and those who have received it and often results in bloody wounds, torn flesh, permanent scars and post traumatic stress disorder.

Oh for heaven’s sake, it seems as though you want me to say that all these is NOT TRUE isn’t it? Well,let me tell you something. The Singaporean Government does not report a lot to its citzens so we have no way of knowing the truth. But let me tell you ; I am completely behind the South Korean Government if they want to punish those Chinese students the way Singapore punished the American. Teach them a good lesson that they will remember for life. And it’s not going to be ‘a little spanking’ either. Makes you wonder why Singapore’s crime rate is so low and repeat offenders are rare ,eh?

2)If you’re interested in debating issues related to Korea with people of other nationalities, check out the Marmot’s Hole, but be forewarned that threads get bogged down by a lot of bickering between ethnic Koreans and former and present Western expats.

I’m sorry, Sonagi, i’m not interested in debating with people of other nationalities. My belief is that all Asians should live in harmony with each other. Slandering each other isn’t the way to go.

3)No, i didn’t go to college in the US and am not planning to. Incidentally, i’m planning to pursue a law degree in South Korea’s Seoul National University after i leave Junior College.

However, our textual criticism of the acts of the Chinese protesters is reasonable.

I agree with you here. I didn’t say that you guys couldn’t criticise them. To clear up misunderstandings, kindly look up to my post to Joshua , under the 3rd paragraph, last line.

I’m sure Hilter had his reasons too.

He wrote a book about them. It’s called My Battle or Mein Kampf. I’ve read it.

I’ve read Mein Kampf too. I’m a history major in school; it’s translated My Struggle. No violent acts are justified, no matter what the reasons may be. The acts of the Chinese students are NOT justified for goodness sake. Sorry if i led anybody to believe that.

Your justification of the violent acts done by Chinese protesters is wrongheaded.

Your attempt to chastise us for verbally criticizing those violent physical acts is wrongheaded.

But, you are and should be completely free to express those opinions here and on the Internet.

I repeat : I did not justify the violent acts of the Chinese students. Come on, it’s ridiculous to jusify them. Everybody knows they’re wrong? I’m not that dumb. Sorry for not making myself clear.

And I should be clear —– I find your statement about Hitler morally repulsive and inexcusable —– unreasonable —– and insulting to millions who died horrible deaths because of Hitler’s “reasons”…

I’m not pro-Hitler and i am extremely sympathetic to the millions who died at his hands. And i’m not saying this because it isn’t my own people. Half my extended family was killed during the Japanese Occupation in Singapore in the year 1942-1945. Out of 10 children, only 3 survived the war . The rest were all killed.My own father was nearly killed himself. My maternal grandparents were captured and tortued into insanity. They’re still alive but they cannot recognise my mother nor any of us. I have friends whose grandparents were brainwashed and tortued.Don’t i have a very good reason to hate the Japanese? I do. But i don’t.

In the case of Hitler, he did not have the good fortune to grow up in a happy and stable household. He did not have a happy adulthood either.It is therefore unavoidable that he will grow up with a very warped mind. Am i correct? His killing of the millions of innocent Jews during the Holocaust were of course not justified. I went to Auschwitz concentration camp last year in Germany, and i really cried when i went there.

Hitler’s ‘reasons’ caused many people to die and many to suffer. But do you agree with me on this: ‘His malicious acts were attributed to a very violent childhood?’ I have a very insightful History teacher who pointed this out to us.

Get my point?

1)Usinkorea, no, i do not go to any foriegn colleges or school. I’ve always been educated in this very Westernised system of Singapore, and yet trust me, i’m still very traditional in terms of idealogies. But since you say that, i shall speak bluntly.

For me defending the actions of the Chinese, i have repeated over and over again:I understand very well what the Chinese Government has done, and i do not need more highlighting from all of you. I may be young but (sorry if this sounds egotistical ) i am very well-read and well-travelled. My point here is that many of you think that i’m some ignorant little kid who doesn’t know what governments do.

Bloody hell, if i come on here without knowing anything, then my defences aren’t justified. However, I DO KNOW YES I KNOW for the very very very last time.

2)If you’re interested in debating issues related to Korea with people of other nationalities, check out the Marmot’s Hole, but be forewarned that threads get bogged down by a lot of bickering between ethnic Koreans and former and present Western expats.

I’m sorry Sonagi, i am not a debator and do not want to debate with others other such things. I believe that as Asians, we must all be able to live together in harmony. I do not represent Western expats.

I believe his reason for bringing up the case was not that he thought the caning was wrong but that many Americans supported the Singaporean government’s right to enforce its laws against foreigners, too.

So? Elaborate please?

3)By the way, i do not feel offended by anything on this blog. Hell, all of you have a point! And obviously, my knowledge is limited to what little i know about world politics. Denfinitely, if i try to compete with you guys, i will lose.

I’M NOT ASKING ANYBODY TO SUPPORT MY OPINIONS. NO ONE CAN COMPLETELY AGREE WITH ANOTHER PERSON’S OPINIONS .IF I’M AS STUPID TO ASK THAT OF EVERYBODY, GO AHEAD, COME AND SLANDER ME ALL YOU WANT. BUT ALL I’M ASKING FOR IS UNDERSTANDING, SO PLEASE BE MORE FORGVING IN THAT SENSE AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND ME, WELL, NO MATTER HOW STUPID IT MIGHT SOUND.

My feelings don’t get hurt easily and yes, i am VERY thick-skinned. I am not offended nor i am angry with all of you ; everybody has their own opinions right? What i want to do is just put my opinions into perspective and let everybody see a different spectrum ; not for people to repeatedly point out mistakes here and there.

I didn’t come here with the intention of starting a debate please.

4)Don’t bring Singapore into this. Trust me, Singapore is even more complicated than China and Korea put together. If you don’t believe me, you can ask any Singaporean you may know. I do not wish to talk about Singapore here. Complete with all its shortcomings, all my fellow Singaporeans, despite my heritage, have accepted me into part of its society. I’m grateful to them and do not have anything against the Government.

5)From what very little I’ve heard from you, you seem like a fairly reasonable person. You showed you want to be a very good person. However, you seem to be showing that the desire to be “open-minded” and “good” and “peace loving” —— has led you to learn some ideas that have twisted your thinking.

It may be reasonable to say that my thinking has been ‘ twisted ‘. I’m sorry, i live in a tiny city-state, a little red dot and has been very protected since young. Now that i’m older, i want to explore some of my limits and break through them. Thank You Usinkorea for that statement.

6) Singaporean style caning was little more than a “good spanking” when in fact it has been described as “torture” by human rights organizations and those who have received it and often results in bloody wounds, torn flesh, permanent scars and post traumatic stress disorder.

Erm, Joshua, EXCUSE ME, but this is ridiculous.Please, we’re may not be the most merciful people in the world but we do have consciences. POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER? Back to my original point, i did not think that the Chinese students cannot be punished in the same way. In fact ,i’m all for it. I’m all behind South Korea in teaching these students a great lesson that they will remember for life. Perhaps you misunderstood me.

Anybody ever wondered why Singapore has a very small number of repeat offenders and a low crime rate ? Hmmm….maybe it’s time to think about that.

IN CONCLUSION, my belief is that ALL countries ALL have the right to punish foreigners, SHOULD THE CRIME THAT THEY COMMITTED BE SERIOUS ENOUGH. In the case of the Chinese students, i wonder why the South Korean Government let them off like that…..

Get my point?

Joshua will soon speak for himself, but it seems to me that perhaps you have misinterpreted his reason for citing the case of the American kid who was caned for vandalism. I believe his reason for bringing up the case was not that he thought the caning was wrong but that many Americans supported the Singaporean government’s right to enforce its laws against foreigners, too.

I went back and reread your two posts. You make general references to blaming and criticizing the Chinese. It would be more relevant to this thread if you could be specific about what parts of Joshua’s post you find objectionable. Cut and paste the parts you disagree with and then explain why.

If you’re interested in debating issues related to Korea with people of other nationalities, check out the Marmot’s Hole, but be forewarned that threads get bogged down by a lot of bickering between ethnic Koreans and former and present Western expats. Just sidestep the verbal doggie doo, and share your very different perspective as a Korean-Chinese woman living in Singapore. As a contributing blogger there, I cordially invite you to have a look, but make sure your skin is thick enough to stand comments way more offensive than whatever seems to have bothered you on this blog. If you’re not able to tune out negativity and whining, just read the posts only and not the comment threads.

Are you sure you didn’t go to college in the US or Canada or maybe Western Europe?

I do not want to hurt the feelings of anyone and have tried not to do so.

You can hurt our feelings. We’re all adults. We can take it. Seriously.

And I doubt anyone is going to be so hurt we’ll fly over to Singapore and crack some heads because of it.

All i’ve been saying is all about PEACE.

Odd statement. I can guess where it is coming from. But, just think about it for a minute —– think about where and how the “peace” has been broken and who you are defending (and whose opinions you are attacking):

Nobody is at war — none of the parties in question.

In fact, you are defending actual acts of violence done by the hands of the Chinese protesters.

You are defending them against the verbal textual criticism of such violent acts on the internet. You are criticizing acts of speech that have no chance of hurting anyone —- except perhaps someone’s feelings.

(By the way, I want to make clear, your speaking your opinion is good. My criticism isn’t meant to be an attempt to shut you up. It is meant to look into what logic or facts and so on you are using in your opinion —- meaning – we are engaging in an open debate. I certainly would not advocate closing such a debate. Most certainly not because it might hurt some adult’s feelings….)

You are speaking out against criticism of violent physical acts for 2 reasons: 1. speaking out against China’s foreign policy hurt China’s feelings and thus the later violent acts of the Chinese protesters were justified understandable. And 2. The heavy criticism of the violent acts of Chinese protesters currently going on in the Internet will only further hurt China’s feelings and cause more (physical) harm to come.

That’s fascinating.

So, if the Chinese government decides to drop a nuke on Seoul, the Koreans were only asking for it?

….Because China would have a good reason for nuking Seoul based on our continued criticism of China and the acts of violence in Seoul of some Chinese citizens….!!!….

Sounds like an exaggeration (and it is), but then we read in your statement:

All i’ve been saying is all about PEACE. None of any conflicts that has happened in the past is any one party’s fault. Even Hitler had his reasons.

This is contemporary 21st Century higher education at its very worst.

I’m sure Hilter had his reasons too.

He wrote a book about them. It’s called My Battle or Mein Kampf. I’ve read it.

So f-ing what?

This is what relativistic bullcrap shoved down the throats of good intentioned young adults in college leads to!!!

It’s an insult to humanity and human intelligence.

A boy is abused as a child. So, when he grows up to rape and murder a whole family, it is “understandable”. He had “reasons” that led him to it. Who are we to judge?

Hitler had “reasons” for what he did. Who are we to judge?

Who are “we” to say Juche doesn’t work? —- something I famously infamously overheard a bright, intelligent, scholarship-holding Korean Studies grad student say after a panel discussion on North Korea —– as she sought to be such a good person by being so open minded.

It makes me want to vomit to get the bad taste out of my mouth.

Let me get back to our original topic to perhaps clear up any possible misunderstandings about what I’m saying:

I do not believe any Koreans would be justified in flying to China for the Olympics and using violence to protest the use of violence by Chinese citizens in Korea.

I do not believe any Korean in Korea should attack any Chinese person currently in Korea due to what happened at the protests that started this discussion.

I do NOT —— NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT —- believe such acts by any Koreans would be “understandable” or “reasonable” —- whether or not some Koreans might point to the violent acts done by Chinese protesters recently as “a reason” for why they might attack a Chinese person.

No. Violent acts in response to the unreasonable acts done by the Chinese at the protests in Korea would be unreasonable.

However, our textual criticism of the acts of the Chinese protesters is reasonable.

Even your round-about defense of the Holocaust (since even Hitler had a reason, don’t you know…) is reasonable debate material. The idea itself is highly unreasonable, but your right to say it – to give your opinion on it – is more than reasonable.

Whether I find it insulting, or whether you find my response to it insulting, doesn’t matter much. This is an open forum and debate.

Anyone familiar with contemporary higher education in many (Western) nations would be familiar with how someone might have their minds twisted enough to be able to say something so morally repulsive as you did concerning The Holocaust.

But some of us have overcome our indoctrination and can still find a way to say that —– your round-about justification of The Holocaust is ultimately ignorant and immoral as is the fact that you have been trained to believe that by holding that very opinion, you are simply showing how “understanding” and “open minded” and “peace loving” you are.

(That is morally repulsive too – but since higher education doesn’t believe in “morals”, I guess they won’t find any problem with what I have to say…)

Your justification of the violent acts done by Chinese protesters is wrongheaded.

Your attempt to chastise us for verbally criticizing those violent physical acts is wrongheaded.

But, you are and should be completely free to express those opinions here and on the Internet.

All I have done is offer my opinion.

If they might hurt your feelings. OK. I can’t really say I’m “sorry”. I would be sorry that you felt any deep sense of hurt. I would not want to cause you any real mental or emotional anguish.

But my recommendation would be to avoid reading about such politically charged things on the internet and certainly avoid engaging in a debate on them —– if you get your feelings hurt so easily.

And I should be clear —– I find your statement about Hitler morally repulsive and inexcusable —– unreasonable —– and insulting to millions who died horrible deaths because of Hitler’s “reasons”…

….but I am not calling you a morally repulsive person.

From what very little I’ve heard from you, you seem like a fairly reasonable person. You showed you want to be a very good person. However, you seem to be showing that the desire to be “open-minded” and “good” and “peace loving” —— has led you to learn some ideas that have twisted your thinking.