We should have never delisted the North.
Once Iraq had elections in 2004, we should have sent Kim an official communique… tell me what you think…

Mr. Kim,

“The United States, having accomplished its mission in Iraq, is now targeting you. We have unilaterally decided that there will be a free North, presumably to merge with the South again, as Korea. In furtherance of this policy statement, American and NATO troops will enter the DPRK at their discretion and secure its entire territory. Upon the arrival of Western forces, the DPRK will cease to be sovereign, and will be placed under the protectorship of the United States of America, assisted by the United Nations, for such time as they may think proper.

“The following are direct orders to you. They are non-negotiable, and you will obey them to the letter. If you are in doubt as to our meaning or intent, we invite you to watch the directive spoken to Saddam Hussein prior to the start of the Iraq conflict.

“Please note further that the United States is prepared at any time to charge you and others named herein, in our military courts, with crimes against humanity, to include mass murder. Said crimes are punishable by death.

“You, your sons, and any other family members in positions of authority are subject to these following orders. When we refer directly to you, the same orders and allowances apply equally to them, and they are included by reference. Failure to comply, by you or the other named persons, within the prescribed time limits will result in said offenders’ arrest, summary battlefield court-martial, and execution. The United States will view any non-compliance with these stipulations as an act of war, and since you have perpetrated crimes against humanity as a civilian while disguising yourself in a military outfit, the United States has no qualms about denying you the rights granted under the Geneva Conventions. Said rights may be denied to any illegal combatant, including a civilian operating under, or overseeing, a criminal, irregular combatant force.

“You WILL, within 48 hours:
(1) Free, or cause to be freed, all political prisoners on DPRK soil;
(2) Close, or cause to be closed, all internment, re-education, and concentration camps which a reasonable person would see as such;
(3) Arrange for the return of all kidnapped Japanese citizens;
(4) Relinquish power, but before you do, you will:
(5) Announce that the KWP is no longer an active entity;
(6) Resign every position you have in the KWP and order its Politburo, Party Congress, and Central Committee dissolved permanently;
(7) Order free elections as your final act;
(8) You WILL then depart the DPRK for a second country of your choosing, Provided: that said country shall NOT be the ROK, the ROC, or the United States or any of its territories or possessions. If you are discovered in any of these prohibited lands, you shall face incarceration for life;
(9) You may remove from the DPRK your wholly personal possessions: clothing, toiletries, non-valuable hobby items, basic foodstuffs, and other ordinary creature comforts, to include one land-line telephone, one cellular telephone, and one personal computer, programs necessary for its normal use, and essential hardware and peripheral devices. Said items shall be inspected by the United States to ensure compliance with other sections of these orders.
(10) You may remove not more than $250,000 in such media of exchange as you might wish, Provided: that no moneys removed shall be American currency or euro, or bearer documents, travelers’ checks, debit cards, credit cards, or any other medium readily convertible into dollars or euro;
(7) You will surrender all other property, both real and personal, within and without the DPRK, whether owned wholly by you or otherwise used at your discretion. You are forbidden from taking any motorized vehicle, of whatever kind, out of the DPRK for personal or business use;
(8) You will surrender ownership of all other bank accounts, savings, or monetary or valuables caches of any kind, wherever located throughout the world; and you are put on notice that said accounts will be used to repay the North Korean populace for the evils you have committed against them, and to facilitate the reunification of the two Koreas under a democratic government;
(9) That any attempt by you or those authorized by you to hinder the collection of moneys and property under sections (7) and (8), or to retain them, shall result in your arrest and summary execution.
(10) You and such members of your household who might be covered under this decree are hereby forbidden ever to return to the Korean Peninsula; to any location on land within fifty (50) statute miles of the Rivers Yalu and Tumen; to any location on land within fifty (50) statute miles of the current border between the Russian Federation and the DPRK; or to any location within the territorial seas of the current two Koreas, Provided: that the prior clause shall be construed as to prohibit your travel within twelve (12) miles of any point of land controlled now or in the future, or claimed, by either or both Koreas, or by a single Korea, whether such claim shall be in dispute or not.

It’s just a first draft; what do you all think? John…

Inconceivable!

Just to clarify in #2….dude’s name was Inigo and someone with 6 fingers killed his father.

Oh, and he’s not really left handed either.

he he.

Thanks for that awesome reference!

We should be wisely skeptical of any NK “reform”, but at the same time, we should not have a stance that discourages reform. So, skepticism, not cynicism.

2. His name is Michael P. Spavor. He did a lecture at the RAS in Seoul. I suppose that he could have been making everything up, but he backed everything up with pictures and detailed accounts, etc.. The publicity wasn’t of the sort that NK would like (smoking pot, watching SK movies, etc.).

3. I’m not saying that. I’m saying that having them on a list called “state sponsors of terror”, and working to discourage the state sponsorship of terror are two different issues. Did the Armenian Genocide happen? Yes. Was it wise to publicly implicate, and thus alienate, a regional ally last year? No. Diplomacy is about using dialog to put your country in a better geopolitical position. It’s not about always presenting accurate views of foreign countries to the public.

I was referring to the time before the Taliban was a national government. Most of his terror was against middle eastern governments at that time. Terrorist nonetheless. Anyway, not relevant.

It is the imperialist’s old trick to carry out ideological and cultural infiltration prior to their launching of an aggression openly. Their bourgeois ideology and culture are reactionary toxins to paralyze people’s ideological consciousness. Through such infiltration, they try to paralyze the independent consciousness of other nations and make them spineless. At the same time, they work to create illusions about capitalism and promote lifestyles among them based on the law of the jungle, in an attempt to induce the collapse of socialist and progressive nations. The ideological and cultural infiltration is their silent, crafty and villainous method of aggression, intervention and domination. . . .

Through “economic exchange” and personnel interchange programs too, the imperialists are pushing their infiltration. . . . Exchange and cooperation activities in the economic and cultural fields have been on the rise since the beginning of the new century. The imperialists are making use of these activities as an important lever to push the infiltration of bourgeois ideology and culture. . . .

The imperialists’ ideological and cultural infiltration, if tolerated, will lead to the collapse and degeneration of society, to disorder and chaos, and even to the loss of the gains of the revolution. The collapse of socialism in the 20th Century — and the revival of capitalism in its place — in some countries gave us the serious lesson that social deterioration begins with ideological degeneration and confusion on the ideological front throws every other front of society into chaos and, consequently, all the gains of the revolution go down the drain eventually. [link]

North Korea’s interest in access to international capital doesn’t extend beyond its interest in the unencumbered laundering of drug money, plus access to aid and extortion money (they can be hard to distinguish at times). To paraphrase David Asher, you wonder what the North Koreans would be capable of if they put half as much effort into manufacturing decent textiles as they have into the quality of their counterfeit c-notes. But they choose to set their own priorities.

2. Define “numerous.” To rephrase a man named Diego, I do not think that word means what you think it means. To even concede your point I first have to concede that your friend (a) exists, (b) is telling the truth and (c) is not unwittingly “interacting” with regime spies. If the answers to (a), (b), and (c) are all yes — though if (b) is true, (c) probably isn’t — the regime would rather forego contact with the outside world than tolerate that sort of interaction.

3. So are you saying that for two rogue states and terror sponsors to exchange nuclear technology does not implicate counter-terrorism interests?

I’ll give you McVeigh, but Bin Laden was sponsored by the Taliban regime.

1. If financial leverage is the only leverage that we have over them, wouldn’t that leverage only increase with them becoming more involved in our markets? I mean, it’s one thing to deny them access. It’s another thing to let them get heavily involved, and then threaten to pull the rug out from under them if they don’t behave. (Of course, this assumes that world financial authorities would demand collateral for any loans; them merely stealing loan money obviously undermines my point, but I think that lenders have learned their lesson by now.)

2. There are numerous, less glamorous projects that you don’t mention. For example, American charities (Bethlehem project, etc.), a number of business and technical schools, and other projects with direct interaction. (A Canadian that worked for a year at a technical university in Pyongyang gave a fascinating lecture at the Royal Asiatic Society. He claimed to date an NK woman, and smoke pot with NK construction workers. That’s real interaction.) Also, remember that the general public doesn’t have to be involved for interaction to make a difference. The elite attempting a coup is more likely than a peasant’s revolution, I think.

3b. I’m suggesting no such thing. I’m merely saying that fighting terror, and giving out the label of “state sponsor of terror”, are not one and the same thing. Obviously, our focus on terrorism should continue, focusing on terrorist targets, with or without such a label.

By the way, Terrorism does not require a state sponsor. Witness Tim McVeigh, or bin Ladin in earlier years (he funded a number of his earlier projects with his inheritance money).