Comments on: 39.91 N, 127.55 E: Hamhung, Haunted City http://freekorea.us/2009/01/21/hamhung/ Wed, 23 May 2012 01:51:43 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: P Elisabeth http://freekorea.us/2009/01/21/hamhung/comment-page-1/#comment-415585 P Elisabeth Sun, 01 Jan 2012 23:08:29 +0000 http://freekorea.us/2009/01/21/3991-n-12755-e-city-of-the-dead/#comment-415585 42.894444,130.215915 More mass graves, close to the Chinese border, the graves are still open... 42.894444,130.215915
More mass graves, close to the Chinese border, the graves are still open…

]]> By: Leonard http://freekorea.us/2009/01/21/hamhung/comment-page-1/#comment-84756 Leonard Fri, 15 Apr 2011 17:03:53 +0000 http://freekorea.us/2009/01/21/3991-n-12755-e-city-of-the-dead/#comment-84756 This is how Koreans traditionally bury their dead, it is the same in South Korea. Don't look at official government run cemetaries as true examples in South Korea Traditionally mountains hold a spiritual meaning for Koreans so they bury them on moutaintops and sides. South Korea has trees on its hills so you can't see the grave mounds on them, but they are there. North Korea has stripped its land of trees, mountaintops and sides are visible and thus there are more grave mounds visible. Because North Korea needs all the land it can get, grave mounds are concentrated so they won't take up much room. Plus, in South Korea the growing trend is for cremation, not burial. I don't see this as evidence of anything other than Koreans die and Koreans bury them in mounds on hills. This is how Koreans traditionally bury their dead, it is the same in South Korea. Don’t look at official government run cemetaries as true examples in South Korea Traditionally mountains hold a spiritual meaning for Koreans so they bury them on moutaintops and sides. South Korea has trees on its hills so you can’t see the grave mounds on them, but they are there. North Korea has stripped its land of trees, mountaintops and sides are visible and thus there are more grave mounds visible. Because North Korea needs all the land it can get, grave mounds are concentrated so they won’t take up much room. Plus, in South Korea the growing trend is for cremation, not burial. I don’t see this as evidence of anything other than Koreans die and Koreans bury them in mounds on hills.

]]> By: Daniel http://freekorea.us/2009/01/21/hamhung/comment-page-1/#comment-80650 Daniel Mon, 07 Feb 2011 03:16:53 +0000 http://freekorea.us/2009/01/21/3991-n-12755-e-city-of-the-dead/#comment-80650 I think what they left out were the concentration camps[Yodok]. I think what they left out were the concentration camps[Yodok].

]]> By: jsternsp http://freekorea.us/2009/01/21/hamhung/comment-page-1/#comment-67922 jsternsp Thu, 09 Jul 2009 08:31:43 +0000 http://freekorea.us/2009/01/21/3991-n-12755-e-city-of-the-dead/#comment-67922 42.4220N, 129.4137E = What appears to be a "typical" cemetery in Chongjin, North Korea's third largest city. The burial mounds are neatly placed on terraces on a hillside. It is more difficult to see because the pictures look like they were taken in summer when there was a lot of vegetation. I have seen very little evidence of haphazard burial mound placement around this city. The coordinates I have used are actually what looks like the newer part of the cemetery. The cemetery appears to be quite large. The older portions of the cemetery are south and east of the coordinates I give. I think I have answered the question about how to tell whether the burial mounds in Hamhung are old. You can clearly see in the older portions of the cemetery, the burial mounds are much less distinct, and the terracing less evident due to erosion. 39.5933N, 127.3457E = A neatly arranged cemetery in Hamhung. Most of the graves seem more distinct and newer than the “famine” graves Joshua used in this article. When I look at it more widely, there seem to be other sections of cemetery nearby. This whole analysis is complicated by the fact that trees and bomb craters also look like mounds on satellite photos. I have what I believe to be bomb craters in the hills above Hamhung and Chongjin. If you don’t think bomb craters from the Korean War would still be visible, check out Pointe du Hoc in Normandy, France. They left it just the way it was on D Day and you can still clearly see the bomb craters from WWII. I have also read posts on this site that claim to see people when it is obvious they are just shrubs. Not to pp in anyone’s Cheerios…I think the images of the graves Joshua uses are from the city’s older cemetery. I think the terracing eroded somewhat. The graves do seem to follow the contour of the hill, and are not really haphazardly placed. If you look at the northern slope of the hillside where there are graves in the area Joshua marked with a yellow box, you can clearly see the shadows cast by terracing. One does not go to the trouble of terracing the hillside when one is starving and overwhelmed by the number of bodies to bury, I think. There are other areas of Hamhung where there are much smaller areas of graves that look more haphazard. It is impossible to know the rate at which a traditional Koran burial mound erodes. I think the older ones are less distinct. I think I have seen newer graves in Chongjin and Hamhung in well arranged cemeteries that are very similar to what you state are haphazard graves. My final analysis is that it is a typical North Korean cemetery with typical burials. 42.4220N, 129.4137E = What appears to be a “typical” cemetery in Chongjin, North Korea’s third largest city. The burial mounds are neatly placed on terraces on a hillside. It is more difficult to see because the pictures look like they were taken in summer when there was a lot of vegetation. I have seen very little evidence of haphazard burial mound placement around this city. The coordinates I have used are actually what looks like the newer part of the cemetery. The cemetery appears to be quite large. The older portions of the cemetery are south and east of the coordinates I give. I think I have answered the question about how to tell whether the burial mounds in Hamhung are old. You can clearly see in the older portions of the cemetery, the burial mounds are much less distinct, and the terracing less evident due to erosion.

39.5933N, 127.3457E = A neatly arranged cemetery in Hamhung. Most of the graves seem more distinct and newer than the “famine” graves Joshua used in this article. When I look at it more widely, there seem to be other sections of cemetery nearby.
This whole analysis is complicated by the fact that trees and bomb craters also look like mounds on satellite photos. I have what I believe to be bomb craters in the hills above Hamhung and Chongjin. If you don’t think bomb craters from the Korean War would still be visible, check out Pointe du Hoc in Normandy, France. They left it just the way it was on D Day and you can still clearly see the bomb craters from WWII. I have also read posts on this site that claim to see people when it is obvious they are just shrubs.

Not to pp in anyone’s Cheerios…I think the images of the graves Joshua uses are from the city’s older cemetery. I think the terracing eroded somewhat. The graves do seem to follow the contour of the hill, and are not really haphazardly placed. If you look at the northern slope of the hillside where there are graves in the area Joshua marked with a yellow box, you can clearly see the shadows cast by terracing. One does not go to the trouble of terracing the hillside when one is starving and overwhelmed by the number of bodies to bury, I think.

There are other areas of Hamhung where there are much smaller areas of graves that look more haphazard. It is impossible to know the rate at which a traditional Koran burial mound erodes. I think the older ones are less distinct. I think I have seen newer graves in Chongjin and Hamhung in well arranged cemeteries that are very similar to what you state are haphazard graves.

My final analysis is that it is a typical North Korean cemetery with typical burials.

]]> By: jsternsp http://freekorea.us/2009/01/21/hamhung/comment-page-1/#comment-67921 jsternsp Thu, 09 Jul 2009 08:29:06 +0000 http://freekorea.us/2009/01/21/3991-n-12755-e-city-of-the-dead/#comment-67921 42.4220N, 129.4137E = What appears to be a "typical" cemetery in Chongjin, North Korea's third largest city. The burial mounds are neatly placed on terraces on a hillside. It is more difficult to see because the pictures look like they were taken in summer when there was a lot of vegetation. I have seen very little evidence of haphazard burial mound placement around this city. The coordinates I have used are actually what looks like the newer part of the cemetery. The cemetery appears to be quite large. The older portions of the cemetery are south and east of the coordinates I give. I think I have answered the question about how to tell whether the burial mounds in Hamhung are old. You can clearly see in the older portions of the cemetery, the burial mounds are much less distinct, and the terracing less evident due to erosion. 39.5933N, 127.3457E = A neatly arranged cemetery in Hamhung. Most of the graves seem more distinct and newer than the “famine” graves Joshua used in this article. When I look at it more widely, there seem to be other sections of cemetery nearby. This whole analysis is complicated by the fact that trees and bomb craters also look like mounds on satellite photos. I have what I believe to be bomb craters in the hills above Hamhung and Chongjin. If you don’t think bomb craters from the Korean War would still be visible, check out Pointe du Hoc in Normandy, France. They left it just the way it was on D Day and you can still clearly see the bomb craters from WWII. I have also read posts on this site that claim to see people when it is obvious they are just shrubs. Not to piss in anyone’s Cheerios…I think the images of the graves Joshua uses are from the city’s older cemetery. I think the terracing eroded somewhat. The graves do seem to follow the contour of the hill, and are not really haphazardly placed. If you look at the northern slope of the hillside where there are graves in the area Joshua marked with a yellow box, you can clearly see the shadows cast by terracing. One does not go to the trouble of terracing the hillside when one is starving and overwhelmed by the number of bodies to bury, I think. There are other areas of Hamhung where there are much smaller areas of graves that look more haphazard. It is impossible to know the rate at which a traditional Koran burial mound erodes. I think the older ones are less distinct. I think I have seen newer graves in Chongjin and Hamhung in well arranged cemeteries that are very similar to what you state are haphazard graves. My final analysis is that it is a typical North Korean cemetery with typical burials. 42.4220N, 129.4137E = What appears to be a “typical” cemetery in Chongjin, North Korea’s third largest city. The burial mounds are neatly placed on terraces on a hillside. It is more difficult to see because the pictures look like they were taken in summer when there was a lot of vegetation. I have seen very little evidence of haphazard burial mound placement around this city. The coordinates I have used are actually what looks like the newer part of the cemetery. The cemetery appears to be quite large. The older portions of the cemetery are south and east of the coordinates I give. I think I have answered the question about how to tell whether the burial mounds in Hamhung are old. You can clearly see in the older portions of the cemetery, the burial mounds are much less distinct, and the terracing less evident due to erosion.

39.5933N, 127.3457E = A neatly arranged cemetery in Hamhung. Most of the graves seem more distinct and newer than the “famine” graves Joshua used in this article. When I look at it more widely, there seem to be other sections of cemetery nearby.
This whole analysis is complicated by the fact that trees and bomb craters also look like mounds on satellite photos. I have what I believe to be bomb craters in the hills above Hamhung and Chongjin. If you don’t think bomb craters from the Korean War would still be visible, check out Pointe du Hoc in Normandy, France. They left it just the way it was on D Day and you can still clearly see the bomb craters from WWII. I have also read posts on this site that claim to see people when it is obvious they are just shrubs.
Not to piss in anyone’s Cheerios…I think the images of the graves Joshua uses are from the city’s older cemetery. I think the terracing eroded somewhat. The graves do seem to follow the contour of the hill, and are not really haphazardly placed. If you look at the northern slope of the hillside where there are graves in the area Joshua marked with a yellow box, you can clearly see the shadows cast by terracing. One does not go to the trouble of terracing the hillside when one is starving and overwhelmed by the number of bodies to bury, I think.

There are other areas of Hamhung where there are much smaller areas of graves that look more haphazard. It is impossible to know the rate at which a traditional Koran burial mound erodes. I think the older ones are less distinct. I think I have seen newer graves in Chongjin and Hamhung in well arranged cemeteries that are very similar to what you state are haphazard graves.

My final analysis is that it is a typical North Korean cemetery with typical burials.

]]> By: jsternsp http://freekorea.us/2009/01/21/hamhung/comment-page-1/#comment-67917 jsternsp Thu, 09 Jul 2009 06:57:24 +0000 http://freekorea.us/2009/01/21/3991-n-12755-e-city-of-the-dead/#comment-67917 Here is a link to a photo of an actual North Korean cemetery: http://www.travel-images.com/photo-korean2.html The graves are not burial mounds, but they are on a hillside on terraced levels. I posted another comment about the abandoned city in North Korea, where I wondered why there were graves on hillsides that seemed to be terraced for agriculture. Maybe it was not terraced for agriculture. Maybe that was an actual example of a "typical" cemetary. I will have to look at that again. Here is a link to a photo of an actual North Korean cemetery:

http://www.travel-images.com/photo-korean2.html

The graves are not burial mounds, but they are on a hillside on terraced levels. I posted another comment about the abandoned city in North Korea, where I wondered why there were graves on hillsides that seemed to be terraced for agriculture. Maybe it was not terraced for agriculture. Maybe that was an actual example of a “typical” cemetary. I will have to look at that again.

]]> By: jsternsp http://freekorea.us/2009/01/21/hamhung/comment-page-1/#comment-67915 jsternsp Thu, 09 Jul 2009 06:52:20 +0000 http://freekorea.us/2009/01/21/3991-n-12755-e-city-of-the-dead/#comment-67915 Shoot! I'm sorry. It's a cemetery in South Korea at the DMZ, but the mounds are probably typical of Korean burial mounds. Shoot! I’m sorry. It’s a cemetery in South Korea at the DMZ, but the mounds are probably typical of Korean burial mounds.

]]> By: jsternsp http://freekorea.us/2009/01/21/hamhung/comment-page-1/#comment-67914 jsternsp Thu, 09 Jul 2009 06:51:00 +0000 http://freekorea.us/2009/01/21/3991-n-12755-e-city-of-the-dead/#comment-67914 Here is a link to a cemetery in North Korea near the DMZ posted by Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures/articleslideshow?articleId=USSEO739320080911&channelName=worldNews#a=1 The mounds seem small enough to indicate a single body, but I think it is quite possible there are multiple bodies under those mounds in Hamhung. Here is a link to a cemetery in North Korea near the DMZ posted by Reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures/articleslideshow?articleId=USSEO739320080911&channelName=worldNews#a=1

The mounds seem small enough to indicate a single body, but I think it is quite possible there are multiple bodies under those mounds in Hamhung.

]]> By: jsternsp http://freekorea.us/2009/01/21/hamhung/comment-page-1/#comment-67913 jsternsp Thu, 09 Jul 2009 06:45:09 +0000 http://freekorea.us/2009/01/21/3991-n-12755-e-city-of-the-dead/#comment-67913 Joshua, I'm sure you are right. You have much more experience at this. (I was stationed at Camp Casey in South Korea in '87-'88, but that does not make me an expert by any stretch of the imagination.) I have the annoying habit of trying to apply my powers of deductive reasoning to everything. I work in the legal field. Your response begs the question...what do they do with their dead under "normal" circumstances? Have you ever seen a neatly arranged cemetery in North Korea? If this burial arrangement is atypical, what is typical? I guess I will have to look around on Google Earth to see if I can find out. I actually rechecked the Seoul cemetery again, and there are small areas of the cemetery where you can see burial mounds, but it is a very small portion of the cemetery. Most of the graves seem to be a more western style marble marker sort of thing. There is one user picture posted in one of the larger burial areas and that is how I knew they used marble markers. I would think, under normal circumstances, although the famine was anything but normal, a grave would last at least a few decades until at least living family members who knew the deceased are dead. We have graves in this country that last for centuries, and most cultures have a strong taboo against disturbing the bones of their ancestors. One other thing I don't know is how large these mounds actually are. I could not find a photograph of the burial mounds in the national cemetery in Seoul. I Googled "Korean burial mounds" but the images seemed to be of mounds that were quite large. Is it possible there is more than one burial in each mound? That is something else I failed to take into account in my analysis. I suppose it would make sense if one were dying of starvation and more than one family member died within a short period to bury them together. It is possible there are multiple remains in each mound. Joshua,

I’m sure you are right. You have much more experience at this. (I was stationed at Camp Casey in South Korea in ’87-’88, but that does not make me an expert by any stretch of the imagination.) I have the annoying habit of trying to apply my powers of deductive reasoning to everything. I work in the legal field.

Your response begs the question…what do they do with their dead under “normal” circumstances? Have you ever seen a neatly arranged cemetery in North Korea? If this burial arrangement is atypical, what is typical? I guess I will have to look around on Google Earth to see if I can find out.

I actually rechecked the Seoul cemetery again, and there are small areas of the cemetery where you can see burial mounds, but it is a very small portion of the cemetery. Most of the graves seem to be a more western style marble marker sort of thing. There is one user picture posted in one of the larger burial areas and that is how I knew they used marble markers.

I would think, under normal circumstances, although the famine was anything but normal, a grave would last at least a few decades until at least living family members who knew the deceased are dead. We have graves in this country that last for centuries, and most cultures have a strong taboo against disturbing the bones of their ancestors.

One other thing I don’t know is how large these mounds actually are. I could not find a photograph of the burial mounds in the national cemetery in Seoul. I Googled “Korean burial mounds” but the images seemed to be of mounds that were quite large.

Is it possible there is more than one burial in each mound? That is something else I failed to take into account in my analysis. I suppose it would make sense if one were dying of starvation and more than one family member died within a short period to bury them together. It is possible there are multiple remains in each mound.

]]> By: Joshua Stanton http://freekorea.us/2009/01/21/hamhung/comment-page-1/#comment-67847 Joshua Stanton Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:26:59 +0000 http://freekorea.us/2009/01/21/3991-n-12755-e-city-of-the-dead/#comment-67847 1. I think I was clear in the post that definitive conclusions about the mortality shown in this picture are impossible without the confirmation of witnesses. My point is that the sheer number of graves here is (a) an aberration, compared to other cities, and (b) consistent with contemporary published reports. 2. There <em>is</em> a tradition of cremation in Korean culture. 3. If your math explains the number of graves, then where are the cemeteries of similar size around other North Korean or Chinese cities of comparable population? You're assuming that graves last for decades, when that just might not be the case. 4. I'll recheck the Seoul cemetery imagery later on GE, but you're right about one thing -- a 16,000 foot view isn't much use in making my point. I'll put up something better later. 1. I think I was clear in the post that definitive conclusions about the mortality shown in this picture are impossible without the confirmation of witnesses. My point is that the sheer number of graves here is (a) an aberration, compared to other cities, and (b) consistent with contemporary published reports.

2. There is a tradition of cremation in Korean culture.

3. If your math explains the number of graves, then where are the cemeteries of similar size around other North Korean or Chinese cities of comparable population? You’re assuming that graves last for decades, when that just might not be the case.

4. I’ll recheck the Seoul cemetery imagery later on GE, but you’re right about one thing — a 16,000 foot view isn’t much use in making my point. I’ll put up something better later.

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