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KCNA: Ling and Lee Filmed Themselves Entering North Korea (Updated, Bumped)

[Original post, 16 Jun 09]

I’ll certainly reserve judgment until we see the videotape and until Ms. Ling and Ms. Lee can freely authenticate it, but if that’s true, it would be, well, stupid, even if it were done with the purpose of informing us about an important issue:

“We’ve just entered a North Korean courtyard without permission,” the Korean translation of their narration on the videotape said, according to KCNA. One of them picked up and pocketed a stone as a memento of the illegal move, the report said.  [AP]

Again, I emphasize that this is KCNA we’re talking about.  Even if we see video, I’d need to be convinced that it wasn’t staged after the fact.

At the same time, North Korea is also dispensing with the idea that it sentenced these women to twelve years in a labor camp not so much for the misdemeanor of crossing the border, but because of the subject matter on which they dared to report:

North Korea said Tuesday that two convicted U.S. journalists admitted to crossing its border with China and shooting video for a smear campaign against Pyongyang over its human rights conditions.

The official Korean Central News Agency released a detailed report “laying bare the facts about the crimes committed by the American journalists,” Chinese-American Laura Ling, 32, and Korean-American Seung-Un Lee, 36, who are reporters for the San Francisco-based Current TV.

“At the trial the accused admitted that what they did were criminal acts committed, prompted by the political motive to isolate and stifle the socialist system of the DPRK (North Korea) by faking up moving images aimed at falsifying its human rights performance and hurling slanders and calumnies at it,” the report said.  [Yonhap News]

One should never presume that any official North Korean statement is true, but if it is, then an appropriate punishment for stupidity is no more than 30 days in jail and a good scare.  The actual punishment for reporting the truth about North Korea’s atrocities, on the other hand, appears to be much more severe.  Such things must be discouraged at all costs.

How long do you suppose it will be before we see more of Barbara Demick’s reporting from the border regions, or more documentaries like the heartbreaking BBC/Chosun Ilbo collaboration, “On the Border?”  If there aren’t, it’s because terrorism works.  And unless President Obama is willing to encourage more of it, he must hold North Korea accountable.  Hey, don’t take it from me, take it from Tom Plate, no less.  Plate is now questioning every reason why I’ve spent the last five years not reading him.  Good for Tom Plate for being honest enough to do so.

Update:  What KCNA’s report and Flickr pages tell us, but first, the Committee to Protect Journalists responds:

“These two journalists were convicted after a trial that was not open to international observers. There has been no transparency in the way North Korea has treated them and this report does not mitigate our concerns about their well-being,” said Bob Dietz, CPJ Asia program coordinator. “At the same time we are hopeful that these latest developments pave the way for the release of these journalists on humanitarian grounds.”  [link]

I wish I shared their optimism.  This plot has thickened.

Oh, and the original KCNA report, has some interesting details.  For one thing, KCNA says the episode took place near Onsong (Google Earth images here), which is very far downstream on the Tumen River and not a place where I’d think the river would run dry in any time of year.  I searched for images of the river border from as many different times of year as possible; here’s what it looks like in July, August, August, October, October, autumn, and in winter, when hell really does freeze over.  None shows the river running dry, and it seems unlikely — though not impossible — that it would still have been completely frozen over and safe to cross in March.

What does this tell us?  For one thing, I think we can rule out the possibility of an accidental crossing.

Another, more surprising, fact we learn from tourists’ Flickr pages is that apparently, tourists and Chinese boatmen have been fairly casual about floating right up to and photographing the North Korean side of the river in that area, including border guard posts.  Would I do it?  Hell, no.  But apparently, this was an established practice in that region.  If Ms. Ling and Ms. Lee merely floated up to the North Korean bank of the river, then for some reason, North Korea chose that particular time and those particular women to change the rules.

KCNA’s report mentions nothing of a boat, but it seems unlikely the women would have crossed the river in that area without one.  I see just three possibilities:  either they crossed the river intentionally (stupid if true, but hardly a proven fact); they floated up to the North Korean side with a video camera and were nabbed there (an excusable indiscretion, in light of past practice); or they were abducted and taken across (international kidnapping, hardly unprecedented for the North Koreans, but also not proven here).

As usual, there are some curious word choices in KNCA’s translation:

The investigation proved that the intruders crossed the border and committed the crime for the purpose of making animation files to be used for an anti-DPRK smear campaign over its human rights issue.

The preliminary investigation proved that they had a confab on producing and broadcasting a documentary slandering the DPRK with Mitch Koss, executive producer of programming of the Current TV, David Neuman, president of programming, and David Harleston, head of the Legal Department of Current TV, and other men in Los Angeles, U.S. in January.

A trial of the accused was held at the Pyongyang City Court from June 4 to 8.

At the trial the accused admitted that what they did were criminal acts committed, prompted by the political motive to isolate and stifle the socialist system of the DPRK by faking up moving images aimed at falsifying its human rights performance and hurling slanders and calumnies at it. [KCNA]

Whether the words “animation” and “moving images” represent some indecipherable and preposterous claim, or whether this is just typically stilted KNCA translation is difficult to say.  What is clear is that the “crime” of which Ms. Ling and Ms. Lee were really sentenced wasn’t so much the alleged crossing of the river but the anticipated content of the report, as revealed by Ling and Lee under North Korean interrogation.

The report ends with this cryptic statment:

We are following with a high degree of vigilance the attitude of the U.S. which spawned the criminal act against the DPRK.

Translation:  The price of their freedom is ransom and censorship.

Update, 18 Jun 09:  The Joongang Ilbo reports on the arrest of Ling and Lee’s “ethnic Korean” guide, although the report answers none of our most important questions about the circumstances of the arrest:

Chun Ki-won, a Christian pastor and human rights activist, said the guide, Kim Seong-cheol, was arrested in China after he managed to evade North Korean guards on March 17, the day Euna Lee and Laura Ling were caught near the China-North Korea border on the Tumen River while reporting on North Korean refugees.

“I believe the Chinese arrested Kim to question him about the journalists’ situation,” said Chun, who declined to provide further, personal details on Kim.  [Joongang Ilbo]

This detail does seem less likely that Kim was a North Korean agent:

Chun said he introduced Kim to Lee and Ling, journalists for the San Francisco-based Current TV, upon their request in January.

“Current TV wanted to send Caucasians on this reporting trip,” Chun recalled. “But I told them reporting on refugees had to be carried out in secret and having Caucasians would make them stand out.”

Chun said he arranged meetings with refugees for the journalists. “I told them never to cross the border,” he said.

The pastor added Lee, who was “fluent in Korean,” called him twice a day to provide him with updates. Lee and Ling were sentenced to 12 years of hard labor on June 8 for their illegal entry.

If Kim was working for the North Koreans, the North Koreans would already have paid him to give them Chun himself.  Chun, for all his faults, is cagey enough to have outsmarted the North Koreans and the Chinese for many dangerous years, despite having become a major irritant to both governments.  To me, that means (contrary to what one source had told me) that the North Koreans probably did not lure Ling and Lee to their capture.  I hope for Kim’s sake that he’s not a North Korean himself.  If he is, the Chinese will send him across the border, where he’d have a very bleak future.

Greg said,

June 16, 2009 @ 10:35 am

If it’s true, then the two girls were very naive.

Won Joon Choe said,

June 16, 2009 @ 10:55 am

Wow, a mea culpa of sorts from Tom Plate. I scarcely believe my own eyes!

Spelunker said,

June 16, 2009 @ 12:06 pm

Does anybody take Tom Plate seriously? He calls himself the voice of reason and volunteers to go to Pyongyang “to help facilitate the ladies’ release”, then follows that up with this gem of wisdom: “One hopes that the presumably wiser heads at the very top of this government (North Korea) recognize their underlings’ miscalculation in snatching the ladies.”
WHAT? I know Plate’s name sounds like “Pu-ray-to” in Japanese but what’s the philosophy behind that statement? Can somebody break it down for me? Wiser heads? Underlings? Snatching miscalculation?

Meanwhile CNN continues to avoid mentioning the name of Mitch Koss even though they are quoting the same KCNA report that Associated Press, Washington Post, and other media outlets apparently had access to.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/06/16/nkorea.journalists/

“The KCNA report Tuesday said they had ‘covertly crossed the River Tuman’ into North Korea. The KCNA report said there were two unidentified men with Ling and Lee when they were arrested, but gave no further details. It did not say whether the men were arrested.”

*** OK, thanks CNN, now here is the same part of the story from the Associated Press:

The reporting team from Current TV crossed the frozen Tumen River dividing North Korea and China three months ago and walked up the river bank — all the while recording their transgression, the official Korean Central News Agency said.

“We’ve just entered a North Korean courtyard without permission,” the Korean translation of their narration on the videotape said, according to KCNA. One of them picked up and pocketed a stone as a memento of the illegal move, the report said.

Two women — reporter Laura Ling and editor Euna Lee — were arrested in Kangan-ri in North Hamgyong Province, the report said. A third person, Current TV executive producer Mitch Koss, and their Korean-Chinese guide managed to flee, KCNA said.

*** How did the Associated Press obtain “further details” from the same KCNA report (video narration and the name of Mitch Koss) while CNN says there were no further details!

***Why does every single article CNN publishes about this story fail to mention the name of Mitch Koss? The search for clues to this mystery led me to Mitch Koss’ home page on the Current TV website with his own self-introduction:

“I started in the TV news and documentary business in the fall of 1983, and had a certain amount of luck. In January of 1993, I was sent to Russia with a 25 year old kid named Anderson Cooper. I decided that I could teach him everything that I knew and then he’d hate me and we’d make crap, or I could say, “okay, partner, what do you want to do?”

***As Arsenio Hall used to say: “things that make you go ‘hmmmm….”

kushibo said,

June 16, 2009 @ 12:45 pm

I will cautiously withhold judgement on this until we hear from the women themselves — as free persons outside of North Korea or China — but I have never thought it was a slam dunk case that they were snatched from the Chinese side of the border. I agree with all of Joshua’s caveats about why this release by the KCNA can’t be taken at face value.

Joshua also wrote:
How long do you suppose it will be before we see more of Barbara Demick’s reporting from the border regions, or more documentaries like the heartbreaking BBC/Chosun Ilbo collaboration, “On the Border?” If there aren’t, it’s because terrorism works. And unless President Obama is willing to encourage more of it, he must hold North Korea accountable.

When did North Korea’s key benefactor, China, from which this flood of reporting will take place, become an open and free society?

Sonagi said,

June 16, 2009 @ 12:48 pm

YTN’s video segment on the KCNA report didn’t show any actual footage from North Korean TV, which I assume is the original source as the Japan-hosted KCNA website doesn’t have a report with this information. Tuesday’s newcast won’t get posted until tomorrow on a Japan-hosted Chosensoren website.

Joshua said,

June 16, 2009 @ 1:04 pm

International media frequently get KCNA reports a day before they’re published on the KCNA site for the rest of us hoi polloi. Check back tomorrow.

Spelunker said,

June 16, 2009 @ 2:25 pm

I’ve got the latest details from BBC Chinese.com; looks like Kim Jong-il’s matinee theater has enough film for a double feature! Now he not only has footage of Current TV’s crew narrating their own trespassing, one could assume the other tapes likely include interviews with North Korean refugees that Laura and Euna had conducted in Yanji (China).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/chinese/simp/hi/newsid_8100000/newsid_8103900/8103918.stm

朝鲜官方新闻社在周二(6月16日)报道,充公了一台摄影机和六盒录影带。
According to KCNA’s report on Tuesday, a video camera was confiscated along with 6 video tapes.

usinkorea said,

June 16, 2009 @ 3:46 pm

From the beginning I wasn’t much interested in whether they crossed the border or not, because I didn’t see it as a justification for their being held.

Focusing much on whether they crossed or didn’t cross obscures the situation more than it clarifies - in terms of North Korea’s responsibility in the affair.

It speaks much to how stupid or not the reporters could be - but it can’t/shouldn’t be used as a measuring stick for whether North Korea was correct in holding them for a long time and then putting them on trial for major crimes against the state.

The crossing focus has a tendency to pull toward a false logic: that if the two are discovered to be guilty of an illegal border crossing - something illegal most anywhere in the world - then the North’s actions are justified.

That guilt on the part of the reporters means North Korea can’t be guilty for holding them.

That’s false and makes the crossing discussion have a natural tendency to be counter-productive.

The reporters can be completely guilty of illegally crossing an international border — and the North still despotic and wrong for holding them for any significant length of time -

– and NK is certainly wrong for putting them on trial for major crimes against the state.

In short, both the reporters and Pyongyang can be in the wrong…

But, we generally don’t tend to think like that… Guilt on the part of one party usually makes us consider the other innocent.

Sonagi said,

June 16, 2009 @ 4:38 pm

If it turns out that Laura Ling and Euna Lee deliberately crossed into North Korea with tapes of refugees in China, then they exercised extremely poor judgment, risking not only their own safety but the lives of the refugees and their helpers. This would explain why Current TV has been tight-lipped from the beginning and why the State Dept. has been cautious. I do not have a good feeling about this.

Joshua said,

June 16, 2009 @ 4:52 pm

That’s right. IF true — and it’s still a big “if” — they would have created far more risk to others (ie., the firing squad) than to themselves. It in no way justifies imprisoning them for more than a few days, but it certainly ought to be a lesson for reporters to know what they’re doing before going into situations that risk the lives of other people.

Spelunker said,

June 16, 2009 @ 5:52 pm

Go toe-to-toe with Anderson Cooper today! At 10:00 Eastern Standard Time he will have family members Lisa Ling, Iain Clayton (Laura’s husband), and Michael Saldate (Euna’s husband) on his show AC360. You can leave a comment on his blog now:

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2009/06/16/n-korea-u-s-journalists-were-creating-smear-campaign/

My comment, which is similar to what I posted above at 12:06, is still awaiting moderation.

You can also go on his live blog once the show begins and interact with Anderson Cooper directly:

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/

Please be sure to mention “Mitch Koss” somewhere on your comment, so we can see if the taboo name gets mentioned on CNN. Today’s show also features the argument for marijuana legalization, so unfortunately we may be sharing the forum with a plethora of potheads. Have fun!

nkmatters said,

June 16, 2009 @ 5:59 pm

thanks for the anderson cooper link.
while i’m leaving a comment about mitch koss, i want to include that david gergen should be quiet.

Spelunker said,

June 16, 2009 @ 7:34 pm

So far CNN refuses to publish any of the 3 comments I have submitted for AC360.
Here is the latest one, still awaiting moderation, which is inspired by David Letterman:

Spelunker’s Top Ten Questions For Laura & Euna’s Family Members:

10. Has Euna been allowed to call her parents in South Korea?

9. What could be the intention for Current TV’s crew to change their intention of not crossing the border?

8. Which Current TV reporter has a collection of stones? (According to KCNA, one of them picked up and pocketed a stone as a souvenir)

7. Wouldn’t now be a good time for Current TV producer Mitch Koss to clarify what happened, or do we have to wait for North Korea’s version of events to come out on DVD?

6. Does anybody know who hired the Korean-Chinese guide who escaped back to China along with Mitch Koss?

5. Do you think Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger should go to Pyongyang with Al Gore to twist Kim Jong-il’s arm and assist with the California residents’ release?

4. Do you think Alaska Governor Sarah Palin should go to Pyongyang with Gore and Schwarzenegger and demand an apology from North Korea?

3. If AC360’s viewers purchased Girl Scout cookies and sent them to Sweden’s embassy in Pyongyang, could the ambassador then deliver them to Laura and Euna?

2. Is there any chance that among the 6 videos confiscated by North Korean sentries one of them was James Bond’s “Die Another Day”?

…and the #1 question submitted by Spelunker for tonight’s show is: After Laura comes home, do you believe she will ever eat Korean food again?

Joshua Stanton said,

June 16, 2009 @ 8:38 pm

I think you’re trivializing this.

Spelunker said,

June 16, 2009 @ 8:59 pm

Seriously, I’m on top of this story. I’ve been monitoring and analyzing it from every possible angle. Check out Durihana’s bulletin board; I even have a post there!
I’m also a comedian.
CNN can’t stand me because I ask the toughest questions, but they also love me because I know how to make them laugh.

Spelunker said,

June 16, 2009 @ 9:45 pm

Not much gleaned from Anderson Cooper’s interview with the husbands and Lisa Ling on CNN. We learned that Sweden’s embassy in Pyongyang has still not been granted access to Laura and Euna since the trial. That’s about it. No hard questions from Anderson, in fact he even admitted that one of his questions was stupid.
Lisa Ling repeated her mantra about how Current TV’s crew “never intended to cross North Korea’s border” even though the KCNA report states that the confiscated video has them literally narrating their own trespassing like the late Crocodile Hunter.
One can only imagine…
“We’re crossing the frozen Tumen River, a dangerous area that serves as the border between China and North Korea. Now we are entering North Korea without permission… Our guide is saying that those North Koreans approaching us are actually refugees disguised as border sentries…”

kushibo said,

June 16, 2009 @ 10:02 pm

Joshua wrote:

IF true — and it’s still a big “if” — they would have created far more risk to others (ie., the firing squad) than to themselves.

If it’s true (and I second the caveat on it being a big if), I’d feel less bad about having called them idiots.

Whether captured on the Chinese side or the North Korean side, I think they exhibited poor judgement in highlighting a part of the border they had gleaned from others as being a crossing point. Even had they not been captured, if such a report had been broadcast, they reasonably should have expected that it would have put others at risk.

Spelunker said,

June 17, 2009 @ 1:32 am

Yonhap has updated the story in order to include new details:

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/northkorea/2009/06/16/26/0401000000AEN20090616010200315F.HTML

Here are the juicy bits including information on the guide, who KCNA refers to as “guard”:

The Americans consulted with senior producers of their television station in January for the “anti-DPRK smear campaign over its human rights issue” and received U$$9,950 for the project, the KCNA report said. In their Chinese visa application forms, they reported themselves as computer specialists entering China for travel, it said.

With help from a guard introduced by Chun Ki-won, a South Korean pastor who helps defectors, the reporters collected “vicious stories” about North Korea at the Chinese border region and covertly crossed the Tumen River into the North at dawn on March 17, the report claimed. They were arrested on the spot, it said.

Spelunker said,

June 17, 2009 @ 3:56 am

Yonhap News Agency updated their story with translations of KCNA’s Korean report. Here are 2 paragraphs that contain information not previously reported:

The Americans consulted with senior producers of their television station in January for the “anti-DPRK smear campaign over its human rights issue” and received U$$9,950 for the project, the KCNA report said. In their Chinese visa application forms, they reported themselves as computer specialists entering China for travel, it said.

With help from a guard introduced by Chun Ki-won, a South Korean pastor who helps defectors, the reporters collected “vicious stories” about North Korea at the Chinese border region and covertly crossed the Tumen River into the North at dawn on March 17, the report claimed. They were arrested on the spot, it said.

I have gone to KCNA’s Korean page and attempted my own translation using “Google Translate”. I think I might have found something else concerning the local guide who led Current TV’s crew (Mitch Koss, Laura Ling, and Euna Lee) across the Tumen River:

http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-k.htm

3월 17일 6시 미취 코스와 로라 링, 리승은은 천기원이 소개하여준 김성철의 안내에 따라 중국 도문시 월정진으로부터 얼어붙은 두만강을 건너 우리 측 대안에 올라선 후 록화촬영기로 주변을 촬영하면서 《우리는 방금 허가없이 북조선경내에 들어왔습니다.》라는 해설을 록음하고 침입기념으로 땅바닥에서 돌맹이를 하나 주어넣기까지 하였다.

“On March 17 at 6:00 Mitch Koss, Laura Ling, and Euna Lee … …. under the guidance of Kim Sung-chul…”

Can somebody who can read Korean please help me with this paragraph because I believe it might be mentioning the name of the ethnic Korean-Chinese guide who was introduced by Chun Ki-won. Is the name of the guide “Kim Sung-chul”? If so, it would be the first time this person’s name has appeared in print!

Spelunker said,

June 17, 2009 @ 9:47 am

Our diligent friend at ROK Drop did considerable research on several bridges that cross the Tumen River, including some of the more remote ones downstream:

http://rokdrop.com/2009/06/08/which-bridge-crossing-were-the-two-us-journalists-captured-at-by-north-korean-border-guards/comment-page-1/

We know the Current TV crew was scheduled to go to Dandong (Liaoning province) later that day, so it’s not unreasonable to assume this was perhaps an unscheduled stop along the way after leaving Yanji. However it’s still possible that they were talked into this idea by the guide, and that he chose this particular place at an appointed time in communication with North Korean agents.
That’s my original theory and I’m not ready to toss it in the garbage bin yet, but the stupidity of Current TV’s crew to narrate their own trespassing along with that awful anecdote of picking up a souvenir stone is leading me to begin questioning how whimsical they actually could have been. Despite this new information from KCNA, it’s still difficult to not believe Lisa Ling when she claims her sister had absolutely no intention of crossing the border when she embarked on this assignment from California. If the guide didn’t suggest it, then did the 3 journalists (Mitch Koss, Laura Ling, and Euna Lee) request the pre-dawn caper themselves? I’m still willing to bet on a bounty, using my own extreme rationalistic analysis, but when presented with new evidence of irrational behavior there is bad feeling in my heart that this could be child’s play rather than foul play.

Belinda said,

June 17, 2009 @ 10:06 am

Spelunker–you seem very on top of this. My questions are somewhat like yours, and I don’t think I’ve seen any answers.

Why are the other MSM reports cutting out the paragraph of KCNA release about the trip being planned since January with David Neuman and David H. the legal guy (who used to be head of Def Jam Records, so he’s not exactly an expert in what’s best practices in journalism)?

I’ve seem reports that the two women were dressed like refugees–was this some sort of “recreation”? That’s cheesy.

Why did Current send Euna Lee, a video editor with no field experience? Too cheap to hire a translator? And wouldn’t her South Korean dialect give her away?

Why did Current send Laura Ling–her sister’s misrepresentation of herself with the eye surgeon’s entrouage (which resulted in a National Geo. documentary–itself no work of genius) had to have put her and her sister on the North Korean’s secret police hit list?

I think “animation files” is a just a poor translation for video.

And working for the BBC and other big news and documentary outfits is a whole lot safer for a freelancer than working for a place like Current.

They had no helpers–crew was Mitch, Laura, Euna and the Chinese local hire.

Spelunker said,

June 17, 2009 @ 1:16 pm

Thank you, Belinda!
I will try to address as many of your questions as possible:

1. Other MSM reports
I can guess you may be wondering why Current TV staff members are seldom named in American “main stream media” reports on this story.
David Harleston is the one who ordered all Current TV employees to remain silent on this story, and not to attend the vigils as well. This is why nobody is allowed to interview key eyewitness Mitch Koss (executive producer), who has been quiet all along. My guess is that whenever mainstream media tries to verify Current TV staff involvement, they get the same two words: “no comment”
CNN appears to have a very strict policy on not mentioning the name of Mitch Koss on the air or online. My comments mentioning him are frequently censored on Anderson Cooper’s blog. If you read the home page bio of Mitch Koss on Current TV’s website then you’ll see a clue as to why this may be happening:

http://current.com/users/MitchKoss.htm

2. Women dressed like refugees?
I have not read such a report. Did that just come out today? Can you post a link for us?
It would not have been a bad idea for them to do so if Mitch was carrying the camera, but I don’t believe this particular caper was planned so carefully. Maybe they considered filming themselves crossing the border in some sort of refugee reenactment, but that’s just my speculation for now. I’d like to see the report you mention and check if there are any more clues about their guide as well.

3. Why Euna Lee?
Poor Euna Lee. Her first overseas assignment with Current TV is China’s border with North Korea. Theoretically it would have been relatively safe if they had just skipped the Tumen River border caper, which was not necessary at all for completion of their story (interviewing North Korean refugees in China). Current TV’s crew had already completed work in Yanji and were scheduled to go to Dandong on the day they were captured. Euna should have stayed in the vehicle with the videotapes and let Mitch and Laura film the border and pick up a souvenir stone for her. Obviously Euna’s language skills were the primary criteria for her selection, as North Korean refugees generally do not speak Chinese or English. On this trip Euna also accompanied Laura to South Korea first for part of the assignment before proceeding to China. Euna was raised in South Korea and her parents still live there, so I assume she may have seen mom and dad while in the vicinity of Seoul. An interesting question would be “Has Euna been allowed to call her parents in South Korea since her detainment?” We know Laura placed a call to her mother. Regarding Euna’s accent, I don’t believe she was brought along specifically to help infiltrate North Korea. She was only supposed to facilitate interviews with North Korean refugees in China. Too cheap to hire a local interpreter? It would be extremely difficult to hire a freelance interpreter in Yanji who would volunteer to interview North Korean refugees. Yanji actually has a bounty for information leading to the arrest of North Korean refugees, so Reverend Chun Ki-won (who helped Current TV plan their China itinerary) probably told Current TV in advance not to consider that option.

4. Why Lisa Ling’s sister?
It’s a fair question, but again we should not assume that Current TV’s original plan (or “intention” as Lisa is fond of saying) was to have Laura cross the border for this assignment. North Korean agents might have heard that she was coming to Yanji though, so for them it was just a matter of getting her on their turf somehow. I have visited Current TV’s website and seen other documentaries produced in China without Laura Ling as the reporter. (There’s a recent one called “Outsourcing Unemployment” featuring reporter Adam Yamaguchi and producer Mitch Koss.) Laura Ling previously did a Current TV documentary on prostitution in Beijing titled “China Sex Workers”, but that one has been removed from Current TV’s website for now. Here are a couple of links:

http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2007/11/video-china-sex-workers-currentcom/
http://shanghaiist.com/2008/01/02/chinas_booming.php

Check out the quote from Shanghaiist about Laura Ling’s work on “China Sex Workers”:

“She also almost got into trouble with some local mafia (which brought back some nasty flashbacks of our own encounters with them a few years ago), but fortunately she got away with it and her tape!”

5. “animation files”
Yes, and there are other translation errors as well. The one I recall at the moment is how KCNA describes Current TV’s narration of their trespassing “We’ve just entered a North Korean courtyard without permission” Also, when was the last time you heard anybody say “calumny”?

Cheers!
Spelunker

Subba said,

June 17, 2009 @ 1:27 pm

It just has the feel of a set up. There was a political advantage to targeting these two that may explain why the two men weren’t captured. Ling for her sisters reporting and Lee for her ethnicity. Reporting from the border has been damaging to the DPRK in the last few years. A targeted snatch and grab gives on these two gives the DPRK political leverage with the US and causes journalists to step back from the border. It’s a win/win operation. Of course, I’m only speculating but this one abduction would accomplish several political goals. It’s something I’d think up if I was sitting around bored in Room 39 after a late night drinking.

With any luck Kim Jong Nam will fee the need for another Disneyland trip and we can exchange quid pro quo.

Spelunker said,

June 17, 2009 @ 1:49 pm

UPDATE! Breaking news! The guide’s name is indeed “Kim Seong-cheol”
Thanks to JoongAng Daily for getting Pastor Chun Ki-won* to tell the world his name:

Reporters’ guide arrested in China
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2906287

The ethnic Korean guide who accompanied two American journalists sentenced to a labor camp in North Korea last week has been arrested by the Chinese security authorities, said a South Korean pastor who organized the reporters’ trip in March.

Chun Ki-won, a Christian pastor and human rights activist, said the guide, Kim Seong-cheol, was arrested in China after he managed to evade North Korean guards on March 17, the day Euna Lee and Laura Ling were caught near the China-North Korea border on the Tumen River while reporting on North Korean refugees. I believe the Chinese arrested Kim to question him about the journalists’ situation,” said Chun, who declined to provide further, personal details on Kim. Chun said he introduced Kim to Lee and Ling, journalists for the San Francisco-based Current TV, upon their request in January.

* Maybe Pastor Chun simply got tired of seeing Spelunker post messages on his website’s bulletin board asking for the guide’s name so that I can “say a prayer for him”

http://www.durihana.net/board/list.aspx?tbname=bbs

Sonagi said,

June 17, 2009 @ 3:17 pm

I think your Google Images map location is off the mark. You’ve located Onsong city, the seat of Onsong-gun. According to the KCNA, the women were apprehended in Kangan-ri, a district in southwestern Onsong-gun. The nearest towns are Chon-seong and Sanseong. Kangan-ri is not located on Google Images but Chon-seong is visible. I noticed that this section of the Tumen River can be quite narrow in parts and that there are a lot of sandbars. There are also, not surprisingly, quite a few guard posts and some tunnels.

Belinda said,

June 17, 2009 @ 3:32 pm

I posted my questions at CJR, and we’ll see if they allow them. Cooper wouldn’t accept mine either. I’m not saying the women did anything wrong, but there’s a certain amount of gonzo punk risk that I think is sort of stupid, and I don’t think that Current TV either informs their staffers or assesses the risks intelligently. Pity about the IPO.

Here’s the reference to dressed:
http://epicanthus.net/2009/06/11/who-is-mitchell-koss-and-why-isnt-he-talking/

“It appears that Koss planned to drive Euna Lee and Laura Ling along the entire length of the 880-mile-long North Korea-China border from Yanji to Dandong. He had made the 36-hour drive before… as a younger man.

But things got FUBAR at the Tumen, and revolutionary punks Euna and Laura, dressed up to look like North Korean refugees, were gone.”

a listener said,

June 17, 2009 @ 3:36 pm

The north Koreans have seized 8 video tapes showing refugees in China. This is the worst news and those people lives are now in danger along with their families. Wow Laura and Euna, talk about irresponsible.

Belinda said,

June 17, 2009 @ 4:06 pm

Rev. Chun’s not the best source for producing advice. Sending two tall blonds would have better idea and that’s what more experienced network types would have done. TV reporting and producing aren’t secret activities–that sort of undercover stuff works in print and maybe sometimes in special investigations, but his naivite got them arrested.

““Current TV wanted to send Caucasians on this reporting trip,” Chun recalled. “But I told them reporting on refugees had to be carried out in secret and having Caucasians would make them stand out.”

Standing out means you’re in full view, and the police/guards/bad guys can’t pretend to not know you’re a reporter. Oy.

Joshua Stanton said,

June 17, 2009 @ 4:07 pm

listener, Let’s not be too quick to believe everything we hear on KCNA.

Spelunker, I’m in awe. Some fine digging you’ve done there.

Sonagi said,

June 17, 2009 @ 4:09 pm

Go to Wikimapia.org and put 온성군 강안리 in the search box. Kangan-ri is not labeled on the map. It is located between Jon-seong and Yeonggang-ri, which are labeled on the Wikimapia map. An approximate border location in Kangan-ri is labeled Chigyongdong.

Joshua Stanton said,

June 17, 2009 @ 4:25 pm

The refugee disguise story makes no sense at all. Why dress two Asian women up as North Korean refugees and then pair them up with a white guy carrying a big camera?

Also, why on earth would Ling and Lee carry 6 or 8 videotapes into North Korea? Not impossible, I suppose, but not plausible that they’d want to have a bunch of bulky and incriminating tapes while doing something clandestine. We know from the reports that Koss was there at the time of capture and escaped. How? Did he swim? Did he take the only boat? If he ran, that would suggest he was on the Chinese side.

If this really happened the way the NK’s would have us believe, then you’d think the two women would have sneaked in alone, carrying as little as possible, without any obviously foreign looking companions.

Sounds fishy. But hey, this is North Korea we’re talking about. My point is that we really don’t know what happened.

Belinda said,

June 17, 2009 @ 4:30 pm

No one shoots on those big Betacams anymore–they probably had a either a mini-DV cam or one of those small Canons. You can see the cameras they use in a number of Current online pieces. And the women could have have very small cameras. I’m surprised that they’d have actual tapes–as opposed to media cards–which might mean the NK are lying (quelle surprise). But if they start broadcasting them, that’s bad news for the people interviewed, etc. I wonder why the sudden “flood” of info coming out of NK?

Sonagi said,

June 17, 2009 @ 5:06 pm

The North Koreans may not have a precise term for memory cards since they’re not in wide use. What the North Koreans called 록화테프 may, in fact, be another medium.

Sonagi said,

June 17, 2009 @ 5:22 pm

According to the KCNA, the group crossed the river at Yueqing/Weolcheong, located at 42°52′59″N 129°49′39″E.

Subba said,

June 17, 2009 @ 5:29 pm

You’re right, we won’t know what really happened but there seems to be a blog consensus that if they crossed the border under their own free will then somehow they should take their lumps. It seems that there would be more sympathy and subsequent alacrity if Current TV or Koss came out and said they were in nabbed from China or mistakenly lured into the DPRK.

Joshua Stanton said,

June 17, 2009 @ 5:42 pm

Blog consensus? LOL. Consensus that they should rot in a labor camp? Well, fuck that!

First, we’re all a bit quick to take the word of the world’s least reliable news source as gospel. Second, in what sense does the punishment fit the crime here? Let’s keep some perspective. On the one hand, I would oppose the payment of a ransom as much as anyone. If KCNA’s version turns out to be accurate, I join the “consensus” that it was stupid and quite possibly fatal to others to cross into NK, though other journalists have gone in “undercover” and gotten away with it. On the other hand, let’s not be so damn quick to consign these two wives/moms/daughters to die in a gulag just because of what KCNA says.

I do agree that Mitch Koss needs to tell us WTF happened here, but so could our State Department. It’s hiding behind the Privacy Act, but that excuse is nonsense. The Privacy Act only covers personally identifiable information stored under/retrievable by a personal identifier, such as name or SSN, and in any event, next of kin can waive it. Lame.

State ought to be making clear to the North Koreans that unless these women are sent home post-haste, we’ll hunt down every bank account they have on this earth and freeze it colder than Hillary Clinton’s smirk.

Greg said,

June 17, 2009 @ 6:04 pm

The refugees who have been filmed were probably arrested and sent to labor camps.

Sonagi said,

June 17, 2009 @ 6:14 pm

I agree with Joshua. Much of what we know about North Korea was communicated to us by people who took risks, and that includes journalists. I do not want to see the State Dept. make any kind of political or aid concessions. The KCNA is not highly credible, but its claims are plausible.

Have you had a chance to check out Google Earth yet, Joshua? Yueqing is a zhen, the Chinese equivalent of a Korean gun, and so denotes a rural district comparable in size to a township or small county. The river looks narrow in parts with sandbars, so it is possible that Mitch and the guide were able to run back across the river. The North Koreans may have been watching the group for a little while and were in contact with their Chinese counterparts in a coordinated effort to apprehend the group once they crossed.

Subba said,

June 17, 2009 @ 6:32 pm

Read the comments in the papers and blogs. It’s an eye opener. I don’t know where people think news comes from but they seem to be uniformly opposed to reporters taking risks. Especially women reporters.

Do you think that Koss’s and Current TVs quietness at the DoS’s behest? Do they want to orchestrate what and when things come out in conjunction with any diplomacy?

Belinda said,

June 17, 2009 @ 7:22 pm

I think Current TV is quiet because the higher-ups know that this is f*cked up. I think it’s the legal issues that are keeping the company and everyone in it muzzled, not the State Dept. (So much for those wild hard-charging young news hounds up there–they’re all too scared to go on the record with even the New York Times. Getting fired for speaking up is no big deal, ya know?)

Maybe there’s some delicate negotiations going on, but I doubt it.

Even if the two crossed the border in pursuit of a story, I’m sure we all agree that the punishment hardly fits the “crime”. I’m not so worried about that part. I think the Current execs. (and I’ll include Al Gore) who sent them there need to man up–make some sort of vague statement of support and concern. How can that statement make things worse for Laura and Euna?

But if they remain silent, then no one can use anything they say against them in a court of law or public opinion. If I were Euna Lee’s husband, I’d get some loud and noisy lawyer, like Gloria Allred, on the job–Lee wasn’t qualified, wasn’t trained for this mission, and didn’t have the support or backup that is standard in the news industry.

Spelunker said,

June 17, 2009 @ 9:22 pm

Oh my, a lot more work to do now! OK, one at a time…

First Belinda…thanks for the epicanthus.net link. I am acquainted with the editor there, Rachel Roh. She and I think alike, so we shared some notes about Mitch Koss recently. I think she even has his phone number, because she told me that she left messages for him. I read the link you provided “Who is Mitchell Koss and Why Isn’t he Talking?” That was written by babamoto. I don’t know that person. I question some parts of that article, such as the seriously flawed estimate of a “36 hour drive from Yanji to Dandong”. This drive should not take more than 16 hours (8 hours from Yanji to Tonghua, another 8 hours from Tonghua to Dandong.) I know for a fact that the Current TV crew was due in Dandong on March 17, so a 36 hour tour would not have been feasible with their original itinerary.

Joshua, … you have some good questions. We are all skeptical of KCNA as a reliable news source, yet on the same day we also had reports from Asahi Shimbun and other mainstream media that Li’l Kim (Jong Un) secretly met President Hu Jintao in Beijing while his private ninjas were elsewhere in China trying to assasinate eldest brother Jong Nam.
All of these crazy reports are keeping me up late at night; I need another nap.

Why did Current TV’s crew carry all 6 videotapes with them? I’m guessing Euna Lee had the tapes. March 17 was their last day in Yanji, so I assume they already checked out of the hotel before heading to the Tumen River. From there they would proceed south to Dandong, so the 3 American journalists probably did not want to leave their valuable videos alone in an unattended vehicle.

How did Mitch Koss escape? I have two seperate sources reporting on Mitch’s escape:
1. This is from “The Chosun Ilbo” on March 20, 2009:
“The journalists and cameraman Mitch Koss were following a guide across the frozen Tumen River early on Tuesday morning when North Korean soldiers armed with rifles approached them from a half-hidden guard post, the Chosun Ilbo newspaper reported today. Koss and the guide pushed the North Korean soldiers away and ran back toward China, but Ling and Lee were caught, the newspaper said, citing an unidentified source.”

2. In this Seattle Times article on March 20, Pastor Chun Ki-won of Durihana says Koss got away at the last minute:

“They were detained that day, along with their guide, Chun said, citing sources he refused to name. He said it was unclear whether they were seized in North Korean or Chinese territory.

He said his sources told him that Koss, a cameraman, escaped arrest “at the last minute.” He said he did not know where Koss was.”

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008891931_nkor20.html

I have been investigating the honorable Pastor Chun Ki-won of South Korea’s Durihana Christian activist organization. He is the one responsible for the guide, as revealed in today’s revelation of the guide’s name in JoongAng Daily: “Chun said he introduced Kim Seong-cheol, to Euna Lee and Laura Ling upon their request in January.”
Laura’s sister Lisa Ling may be familiar with the name of Pastor Chun Ki-won if she still has her complimentary subscription to National Geographic magazine. Tom O’Neill did an excellent article on North Korean refugees in Yanji (that’s right, same story!) in the February 2009 issue. Here’s Tom’s take on Pastor Chun and his guides:

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/02/north-korea/oneill-text/1

From his office two stories above a food market in Seoul, South Korea, Pastor Chun Ki-won had made the call—the signal for defectors to leave on the underground railroad—many times before. Founder of Durihana (Two Become One) Mission, one of numerous Christian organizations that have sprung up in South Korea to help defectors, Chun has masterminded the escapes of hundreds of North Koreans trapped in China, providing them sanctuary in South Korea, the U.S., and other countries.

But the pastor, now in his 50s and beginning to gray, is no storybook saint. His missionary contacts in China sometimes chafe at what they consider his bossy, reckless decisions; his top guide is a former drug smuggler; and Chun is not above resenting what he sees as ingratitude. “Do you know that of all the people I’ve helped rescue, only 30 or so have ever called to thank me,” he said. But, he added, “they’re not bad people. They just can’t understand that someone would help them without a reward.”

Jodi said,

June 17, 2009 @ 11:47 pm

I still don’t know what to think or if it really matters anymore where these two were when they were arrested. I was first told by a reliable source right after it happened that they were in North Korea when they were apprehended although I admit that just because we’re hearing this is so from the KCNA doesn’t mean they actually were. However, the silence coming from the State Department and Current TV certainly aren’t painting a picture of innocence for these two when it comes to where they were on the border.

I think the bigger “crime” in North Korea’s eyes is the content of their story. Having said that, I find it interesting that there are two different versions out there about what it is the journalists were reporting on. According to Lisa Ling during her media campaign, the two were supposedly working on a story about women being trafficked along the China-North Korea border. But from the beginning, we have heard that they were actually doing a piece on on North Korean refugees. Put that way, those are two different stories with the latter being especially sensitive to the DPRK. I’m curious as to what the real story was although I’m sure that also doesn’t really matter at this point as they’ve been arrested and sentenced without any transparency whatsoever.

Anyway, I’m still overseas in the land of slow internet connectivity so this will probably be my first and last time online until I return. I see I have a lot to catch up on already.

Spelunker said,

June 18, 2009 @ 5:31 am

ROK Drop has a very useful link to a Korean scholar’s blog called “Ask a Korean”, so I asked “The Korean” a question and got more than what I hoped for:

http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2009/06/ask-korean-news-joo-seong-ha-on-laura.html

Ask a Korean! News: Joo Seong-Ha on Laura Ling and Euna Lee

Here is something for the followers of Laura Ling and Euna Lee. Joo Seong-Ha of Nambuk Story has spoken to the guard who captured the reporters:

I tried to find out the circumstances of the capture. A border patrol officer
who is stationed in Gang’An-Li simply answered, “We saw the women roaming
around in early morning, so we caught them.” I asked him, “Did you get
someone to lure them into crossing the border?” “You weren’t waiting for them?”,
etc., but he replied, “Not at all.” … Also considering that the men
who ran away are keeping quiet, it does seem like it was the reporters’ fault.

The Korean would not be surprised if North Korea kidnapped the reporters across the border, but Joo is a reputable journalist with an extremely deep and wide connection within North Korea. Those who doubt him about North Korea do so at their own peril.

Irene said,

June 18, 2009 @ 7:36 am

“Reporters without borders” asserts that North Korea’s trial and publicized imprisonment of these two journalists is meant to show the world their intention to intimidate other journalists from doing their investigative duties re: the refugees and human trafficking.

In response, reporters should show up en masse “on the border” all along the Chinese-Korean border where stories like these are still happening:

A 26-year-old North Korean woman, Mun Yun-hee crossed the Duman or Tumen River into China in the dawn of Oct. 22 last year, which at that point was some 40 m wide, guided by a human trafficker. She was being sold to a single middle-aged Chinese farmer into a kind of indentured servitude-cum-companionship. Both of them wore only panties, having stored their trousers and shoes in bags, because if you are found wearing wet clothes across the river deep at night, it is a dead giveaway that you are a North Korean refugee.
Mun was led to a hideout, and the agent left. Asked why she crossed the river, she replied, “My father starved to death late in the 1990s, and my mother is blind from hunger.” Her family owed 300 kg of corns, beans and rice and sold herself for the sake of her blind mother and a younger brother. The middleman paid her 350 yuan, or W46,000 (US$1=W939), equivalent to half of the grain debt.

kushibo said,

June 18, 2009 @ 10:57 am

Jodi wrote:

According to Lisa Ling during her media campaign, the two were supposedly working on a story about women being trafficked along the China-North Korea border. But from the beginning, we have heard that they were actually doing a piece on on North Korean refugees. Put that way, those are two different stories with the latter being especially sensitive to the DPRK.

I don’t see why these two stories wouldn’t actually be two different descriptions of the same thing.

The women trafficked along the China-Chosŏn border are often DPRK refugees, and anything talking about their activities or their plight — even outside North Korea — is sensitive to Pyongyang.

kushibo said,

June 18, 2009 @ 11:03 am

Joshua wrote:

Also, why on earth would Ling and Lee carry 6 or 8 videotapes into North Korea? Not impossible, I suppose, but not plausible that they’d want to have a bunch of bulky and incriminating tapes while doing something clandestine.

If they were using 6-mm “mini DV” tapes often used in hand-held cameras for television work, they aren’t that big and six or even eight would fit nicely into the pockets of a winter coat you might be wearing in that region in March and you’d forget they’re there.

Not that they actually forgot, but I think (and this is purely speculative) these three were operating as if they were bullet-proof. I suspect (and this is purely speculative) they were working from the thrilling fear of being caught but without the cold, hard calculation of how to avoid it or what they should do to prepare for that possibility.

As an analogy, imagine the completely different viewpoints of a tourist at Panmunjom versus a soldier at Panmunjom.

Belinda said,

June 18, 2009 @ 3:18 pm

Spelunker–how do you know about the travel plans they had for the story? I wish there was a way I could ask you questions off list.

Spelunker said,

June 19, 2009 @ 1:27 am

Euna Lee called Pastor Chun Ki-Won on the morning of March 17 and told him that they were headed to Dandong. Here are two sources:

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2009Mar19/0,4670,ASNKoreaJournalistsHeld,00.html

“Chun said he last spoke to them by phone Tuesday morning. The women told him they were in the Chinese border city of Yanji and were heading toward the Yalu River near the Chinese city of Dandong.”

Also I have a similar reference from an Associated Press article on March 31, 2009:

http://www.mercurynews.com/california/ci_11964480

Chun said the journalists headed to the Chinese city of Yanji, across the border from North Korea’s far northeastern corner, where they planned to interview women forced by human traffickers to strip for online customers. They also planned to meet with children of defectors, Chun said.
“Missing home,” Ling wrote on Twitter on Monday (March 16).
Chun said he spoke to the women by phone early the next morning (March 17) . They said they were heading to the Chinese border town of Dandong, some 500 miles from Yangji, and then on to the city of Shenyang. That was the last he heard from them.

Belinda, you can ask me any question here on “One Free Korea”. I am willing to share all of my information and sources.

Belinda said,

June 19, 2009 @ 5:02 pm

Could the Rev. have pushed them into doing something risky? He seems like kind of a loose cannon.

Do you know anyone at Current–past or present? Isn’t any big media–Vanity Fair, NYT magazine, etc–doing a story about this?

I’m still waiting for someone other than wacko conspiracy guy Victor Trout to suggest that maybe Current’s not as innocent as it might be.

kushibo said,

June 19, 2009 @ 5:49 pm

Belinda, if the Reverend is in the business of ferrying people out of North Korea, why would he push them into doing something risky that would potentially plug up an area where one could cross, once their report came out?

If Ling, Koss, and Lee did this, my guess is that it was their own idea to do so. At least Ling and possibly Koss. The Reverend or the guide (if he wasn’t in cahoots with the North) may have provided the means for the plan, but not the desire or the plan itself.

Joshua Stanton said,

June 19, 2009 @ 6:29 pm

The last thing that Chun Ki Won wants is somebody captured and telling the North Koreans all about how he rolls. Doesn’t make sense to me, either.

Spelunker said,

June 19, 2009 @ 7:17 pm

It must be hard for big media to write a story on Current TV when everybody keeps getting the same 2 words: (drum roll please….) “NO COMMENT” You’ll just have to be content with anonymous Gawker contributions from current Current employees.

I’m waiting for more big media to go after Pastor Chun Ki-won. He knows more about the local guide Kim Seong-cheol than what he’s revealed so far. Somebody needs to really interrogate him in pursuit of the guide’s story. Is Kim Seong-cheol the same “top guide” who National Geographic claimed was a former drug smuggler? I can assure you that Pastor Chun is 100% innocent; he even told Current TV’s crew specifically to stay away from the dangerous Tumen River border area. They were supposed to just interview North Korean refugees in Yanji and then proceed to Dandong.

I would also like to know if anybody in South Korea’s media has tried interviewing Euna Lee’s parents. Have they had a call from Euna since she was detained?

Sonagi said,

June 20, 2009 @ 7:23 am

@Spelunker:

Are you a journalist? If so, you don’t seem to work for a major news organization since you don’t have easy access to a Korean translator. As a school teacher on summer break, I have too much time on my hands. I will search around today for interviews with Euna Lee’s parents and other related news.

usinkorea said,

June 20, 2009 @ 8:38 am

Honestly, I can’t believe the bulk of our attention is directed at ferreting out info about the crossing and where the two were first taken — turning over every stone and trying to figure out who to put pressure on to find out “the truth” — while the women are still being held and have just been sentenced to a long prison term in NK’s gulag.

Honestly, wouldn’t it be better to talk about formulating strategies for putting pressure on different groups to use their influence to get the two freed? — campaigns to get the media to talk more about their plight and NK’s hellish oppression? campaigns to contact key members of Congress? Al Gore? — whoever we think can help push the US government to do more than just sit patiently and wait for Pyongyang’s next move?

The fact the two are still being held with no end remotely in sight means much more than where they were initially taken…

Belinda said,

June 20, 2009 @ 9:53 am

But here’s the deal–why is the US Gov’t going to rescue them, when their own company seems unable or unwilling to admit what’s going on? If they broke the laws of North Korea, stupid as we may think those laws are, the US has to take a different tactic than it would if they were kidnapped while in China.

The sentence is out of proportion to the alleged crime, as I’m sure most people reading and commenting on this agree.

The federal government has rather bigger issues facing it vis-a-vis NK than just these two women.

Getting the media more involved would require Current TV to open up as well. And until that happens, I think speculation will continue. Maybe Gore’s working behind the scenes, round the clock, with some delicate negotiations. It would be nice to think so.

Sonagi said,

June 20, 2009 @ 10:32 am

What she said.

usinkorea said,

June 20, 2009 @ 11:46 am

Focusing attention on whether the two reporters “broke the laws” of North Korea might be good if the US government wants to ditch any connection with them - which maybe it does - which it probably does since the initial reaction out of the US in Seoul was that the two women were stupid and a distraction.

But if disdain for the plight of the women is not the primary US government position, the way it has handled the situation so far - and the large amount of attention being placed on the “broke the laws” or not issue outside of government circles - helps Pyongyang significantly.

It basically creates a no lose - all win situation for the regime:

North Korea is using the two women as pawns for propaganda and other purposes.

The US shutting its mouth about them isn’t going to make that go away.

Focusing most of our attention on whether they crossed the border or not isn’t going to change that. It might make us feel less concerned about the plight of the two women or not. But it won’t do more than just adjust our own feelings about the case.

It will not change NK’s program at all. We simply help the rest of the world accept that program or not based on how much attention we focus on the border crossing issue.

The US has more on its plate?

Sure. This is a helpful line of thinking if our ultimate purpose is to justify the US disconnecting itself from the plight of these two Americans.

I doubt it does much beyond that.

In the border scheme of things, NK successfully holding two American reporters in its gulag is just another item in North Korea’s playbook that makes it look stronger than it actual is and makes the US and others weaker than they actually are:

NK is testing nuclear weapons at its own whim.

It is conducting necessary ICBMs to help it in developing the capacity to toss its nukes anywhere on the planet.

It is now carrying out illegal shipments of arms, drugs, counterfeit dollars, or other illicit cargo within full view of the world media who also get to watch US military ships just tracking them…

…i wonder if the Korean crew has bothered sticking out their tongues or mooning the American crews yet?….

And what has the US led the world to do in response to any or the total of all of this?

Jackpoo…

If the US were making significant progress on disarming North Korea or getting it to reform — and the case of these two reporters was in serious danger of upsetting that progress — then I’d say toss the two aside as a distraction and try to minimize the world’s attention on them…

…..but we have nothing in the way of progress and I can’t think of any reasonable argument that can be made that the case of these two reporters is significantly hampering progress.

In fact, I’d think a better case could be made that highlighting their plight to catch global attention would help the US apply more effective pressure on Pyongyang that will benefit other things like actually backing up UN sanctions on nukes and ICBMs with effective pressure. — by putting China and Russia in a hotter position for blocking such effective pressure.

We are showing we don’t really care about the two American citizens - and I don’t see how that helps strengthen the US position on 6 party talks, nukes, ICBMs or anything…

We are just proving here (and elsewhere) we won’t do more than complain and sign another useless piece of paper at the UN each time the North tests a nuke or ICBM.

We are making ourselves look largely impotent and making it seem North Korea is calling all the shots and is the one with plenty of room to maneuver.

So, again — if it helps the US government and others feel better about the nothing we are currently doing in the face of North Korean provocations, then they can focus on the “illegal acts” of these two all they want - and they can ghost-shadow NK’s illegal cargoes and do photo ops with Hans Blix signing yet another UN resolution condemning NK for its provocations. They should have this stuff on form-letters by now…where they can just plug in new dates the next time the North tests an ICBM…

The US has bigger issues on its plate, but that doesn’t mean ignoring the North’s actions in regards to these two Americans makes sense.

It would be very bad if the US allowed Pyongyang to tie releasing these two with lessoning sanctions or doing something incredibly stupid like taking them off the state sponsors of terrorism list — oh, we already did that for basically nothing…

But largely ignoring the North’s actions with these two Americans does not help ANY US position in the larger areas - nukes, ICBMs, nuke programs, 6 party talks, whatever…

Ignoring the two reporters or focusing our attention on the laws they broke just takes the heat off the US and North Korean governments.

NK still comes away looking strong and the US weak -

and as a long term bonus, it has two Americans it can parade around on international news reports anytime it feels like it in the future to remind the world how much power it has and how Washington can’t do anything about it….

usinkorea said,

June 20, 2009 @ 12:04 pm

I know its just being childish, but I’m starting to wonder if the State Department would have gone through more trouble if these two reporters had been college students trying to smuggle hashish out of Turkey?

Spelunker said,

June 20, 2009 @ 2:14 pm

@Sonagi
I am not a journalist. My only Korean interpreter is “Google Translate” Thank you very much for your kind offer to help. I tried to use Google translate with the Nambuk Story blog recommended by “The Korean” at “Ask The Korean”, but the article’s format does not allow copy and paste. “The Korean” translated one paragraph for me, and now I’m hungry for more:
http://www.journalog.net/nambukstory/13801
I was able to Google translate the comments section and am interested in this one by the blog’s author:
도망친 남자는 중국측 가이드와 여기자들과 같은 회사에서 일하는 동료였습니다. 지금쯤 미국에 돌아가 정보당국에 상세한 상황을 해설해 주었을 것입니다. 저의 판단으로는 이번 경우는 확실히 여기자들이 조심하지 못하고 무모한 행동을 했던 측면이 있다고 생각합니다.
He often uses the word 여기자들 (yeogija?), which Google somehow is not able to translate
into English so I would like to know what that means as well. Anyway, the fact that somebody claims to have interviewed one of the border sentries involved in arresting Laura and Euna fascinates me. Is this interview featured in any other Korean media? Now that the name of the local guide (김성철 Kim Sung-chul) in Yanji is known in South Korea , have there been any more articles on his background or current whereabouts? I can do a Google search with the Korean hangul of the guide’s name and see plenty of long articles, such as this recent one by the respectable Yonhap News Agency:
http://www.yonhapnews.co.kr/politics/2009/06/16/0505000000AKR20090616204900014.HTML?template=2086
Thank you very much, Sonagi! 정말 감사합니다.

@Belinda
I have previously posted information at ROK Drop about what’s going on behind the scenes to release Laura and Euna. The problem with Gore, in North Korea’s view, is that he is not a current member of Obama’s administration. That’s from a South Korean professor at the University of North Korean Studies.
http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090619/FOREIGN/706189884/1015/NEWS

A quotation from South Korea’s Foreign Minister during a Korean press conference on June 7 gives offers more insight:
Q: What is the probability of former U.S. Vice President Al Gore visiting Pyongyang to negotiate the release of two American female journalists?

Yu: It seems that the U.S. government is discussing whether to tackle the issue directly or have the private sector deal with it. If similar precedents of American figures paying cash to North Korea in exchange for release of U.S. citizens in custody are taken into account, we could imagine Gore visiting North Korea. I personally expect he will limit negotiations to the humanitarian agenda of the journalists’ release, rather than take advantage of the chance for political talks with the North.

So from those 2 seperate sources I would deduce that Obama has been ready to send Gore but North Korea insists on getting somebody else to talk about more than just humanitarian issues.
Try to think of it like two kids trading baseball cards:
Obama: Yo Kim, I’ll give you Gore for the 2 girls.
Kim: No way, I want Hillary say yo.
Obama: Yo? You can’t have Hillary. How about Bill?
Kim: Bill Clinton?
Obama: No, your old pal Bill Richardson!
Kim: No good; Me want somebody big say yo!
Obama: Wait a second, I’ve got somebody really big who wants to talk to you.
Arnold: “YO! How vould you like zee TerMEEnator? This is da governor of CaLEEfornia.”
Kim: Schwarzenegger say yo?
Arnold: Yes, I said “Yo”. This is Awnold and I vant zee 2 girls !

@USinKorea
Never mind. This comment is already long enough.

Sonagi said,

June 20, 2009 @ 2:37 pm

@Spelunker:

I looked around the Korean media and couldn’t even find the full names or photos of Euna Lee’s parents, nevermind any quotes or interviews.

여기자들 = women reporters (여= female; 기자= reporter; 들=plural suffix)

I will check out the Yonhap link and do a little Googling and Navering today or tomorrow and pass along any informative links.

I was going to translate the comment, but I have a sneaky feeling you already know what it means. In fact, I’m starting to get the feeling you might be fluent in Korean.

Sonagi said,

June 20, 2009 @ 2:45 pm

BTW, if you’re not fluent in Korean, you might consider using Yahoo Babelfish instead. It translated 여기자들 as “woman reporters.”

Belinda said,

June 20, 2009 @ 5:21 pm

Being able to establish the facts, independently of the North Korean press release, might have been the first move for Current-TV working with the State Dept. If North Korea had kidnapped the two, State might have more to work with, but if their own zeal/inepititude got them arrested–esp. if their bosses at Current knew of this plan in advance, well, maybe Current needs to start dealing with this, esp. a well timed bribe/ransom/fine might pay off, instead of waiting for the Obama adminstration to rescue them.

A lot has changed since Midnight Express was in the multiplex. The NYT reporter, kidnapped in Afghanistan, escaped. The US government wasn’t doing anything for him, either, and the NYT wasn’t publicizing it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/world/asia/21taliban.html?_r=2&hp

I’m not suggesting that Ling and Lee do the same, but I’m do wonder about the blog world drum beat of “Obama/Hillary/Gore DO Something!” when Current-TV is the corporate enitity that should be addressed.

usinkorea said,

June 20, 2009 @ 6:07 pm

I wanted to highlight more clearly an idea from the longer comment today, because I’ve been thinking about it and it does seem key:

The 6 party talks and all other “diplomatic” efforts with NK are dead in the water and have been for a few months.

In fact, Obama seems to be pointing US NK policy in the direction of confrontation rather than appeasement.

There is no progress at all on the broader issues that can be derailed by the US focusing major attention on the plight of these two reporters.

In fact, if the US government could get the world press to make the plight of the two reporters a hot issue — it could help Obama be more effective in the other pressure points he is trying to use.

The only way focusing on the plight of these two reporters could negatively influence the US approach on the nuke and missile and other issues is —

— if the US were stupid enough to grant the North concessions on those other issues solely for releasing the two reporters. — and that isn’t likely to happen.

Spelunker said,

June 20, 2009 @ 7:28 pm

I never studied Korean. I was able to isolate the guide’s name through a tedious process of elimination on Google Translate. I have a very rough idea of what the comment means through Google translate’s mumbo jumbo, but was hoping for a more accurate translation from an intelligent person that can read Hangul.

도망친 남자는 중국측 가이드와 여기자들과 같은 회사에서 일하는 동료였습니다. 지금쯤 미국에 돌아가 정보당국에 상세한 상황을 해설해 주었을 것입니다. 저의 판단으로는 이번 경우는 확실히 여기자들이 조심하지 못하고 무모한 행동을 했던 측면이 있다고 생각합니다.

Google Translate’s official translation:
The man escaped with Chinese guide and yeogija work was in the same company. Now go back to the U.S. authorities detailed information will be picked haeseolhae situation. I definitely believe that this case was reckless yeogija they are not careful, I think the side.

Now here is Yahoo Babelfish’s baffling translation of the same comment:
Escape the man whom hits with the Chinese side guides and the woman reporters was the colleague who works from the same company. Goes back to the now about United States and to explain the situation which is detailed in information authorities. This case positively the woman reporters do not take care with secret intention judgment not to be able, is rash thinks that there is a side which acts.

Yahoo Babelfish has the capability to translate entire web pages, but once again the Nambuk Story blog is completely Babel-proof. I then tried inserting the Yonhap News Agency link that I posted above into Yahoo Babel-Fish and got the following babble:

The tablecloth “us the United States an anti-communism soup criminal act buys the time of birth height confronts specially from end and to have awaking sharply, is staring, revealed “.

The North America negotiation for a woman reporters release is started North Korea with the defector from North Korea and North Korea human rights problematic collection of data of these woman reporter “is same as for the US government which is a recurrence prevention guarantee of anti-communism soup criminal act ” accommodates about the US government, the possibility which will put out a difficult demand.

The secret process border entrance and exit crime application = two woman reporters 6:00 a.m. March 17th big [len] received the guidance of the Kim sage whom thousand pastors introduce with a [thu] TV program production bringing up for discussion director American course together and two which freezes after entering to the opposite side North Korea riverside, photographed a circumference with the telerecording camera, the tablecloth explained a peace from door city monthly contract position.

I think the Yonhap link is an article about the KCNA report of the trial. I would still be interested in finding out if there is an article in Korean media on Euna Lee and her parents in South Korea. If the captive female video editor was a Japanese-American journalist whose parents still live in Japan then I can guarantee that NHK, Asahi, Yomiuri, and others would be camped outside the poor parents house.

Why is it when eldest son Kim Jong Nam goes to Macau it seems that only Japanese media are following him around asking questions in English? Where are the aggressive reporters from America, Britain, South Korea, Hong Kong, etc.? I think it’s a real shame.

Sonagi said,

June 21, 2009 @ 7:29 am

I searched using both Google and Naver yesterday and could not find even a mention of the parents’ names or their photos, nevermind any interviews.

Spelunker said,

June 21, 2009 @ 12:19 pm

Do you think it would do any good if Euna Lee’s parents in South Korea made a televised plea for compassion like the Ling family did in America? Is there a paparazzi news show on South Korean TV that would try contacting Euna’s parents or do they have too much respect for people’s privacy? I wonder if Euna was allowed to call her parents before the trial, or if she was only permitted one call and used it on her husband in California.

Sonagi said,

June 21, 2009 @ 1:45 pm

No, I do not think public pleas for leniency would do any good. The North Koreans certainly aren’t going to respond, and TV images of tearful parents might do more harm than good. If Belinda is correct, people stateside are pressuring the US goverment to “do something.” Now that the North Koreans have gotten whatever intel was available on the media storage devices and through interrogations, the two journalists are of no value to them except as bargaining chips. The women are of no strategic value to the US government, which is responding out of humanitarian concern. This means the North will have to accept whatever it can get and in the meantime, it would gain nothing by harming its hostages. Current TV and/or the US government can deal more effectively with the North Korean government with less public pressure to “do something.” As the plight of the women slips from the headlines, their value as a bargaining chip decreases. The North will periodically issue media releases to revive the story, but time is on our side.

usinkorea said,

June 21, 2009 @ 3:18 pm

it would gain nothing by harming its hostages.

From there down in Songi’s last comment — it could be true, but it isn’t the only viable interpretation of the situation. In fact, the exact opposite could also be true:

The North Korean regime is a megalomaniacal one that frequently does things that don’t make sense compared to how much of the world operates.

For example, who would have predicted, or can make sense of, North Korea sending military patrol boats to shoot it up with South Korean patrol boats in the West Sea just because South Korea was hosting the World Cup?

The one woman’s sister made an international fool out of the regime by daring to come into the country undercover and then create a much watched documentary lambasting the Dear Leader and his regime.

– That is easily more than enough motivation for a regime like that to want to harm both women and actually keep them in the gulag for the time specified or death, whichever comes first.

I think you can even consider a realistic scenario of motivation to harm the women that doesn’t include that sister:

It is a given that the regime has taken note of the handful of documentaries that have been done the last ten years and noted that some of the most compelling elements in them has come from reporters and NGOs doing exactly what these two reporters were doing on the border - and that those documentaries has damned the regime in the eyes of millions around the world.

That is more than enough incentive for a regime like Pyongyang to harm these women - both as some kind of misguided payback at the other documentary and news footage makers not even connected to these two particular women — but also as a way to warn would-be border filmers to stay away.

Just in that alone, it calls into question the idea quoted above — “it would gain nothing by harming its hostages.”

That is why I haven’t liked the “go silent” approach by the US government from the start:

Given that chance the regime might be inclined to do harm to these two women, showing indifference on the part of Washington makes the chance the North will decide to harm them much higher.

If Washington had come out strong from the start saying it took the plight of these women very seriously, the North would have had to think twice before it did anything to them in the form of torture.

Seeing Washington doesn’t care makes it easier for Pyongyang to decide to take revenge or send a message to other would-be filmers.

The line of thinking in Sonagi’s last comment makes sense if the two women are only chips to be negotiated away — that they are just something the North wants to make a profit on.

But I can’t rest assured that a regime like North Korea has proven itself to be time and time again in the past —- doesn’t consider the two are more than just a cash cow.

I can easily picture an outcome in which, once the North sees that it isn’t going to gain as much as it would like out of the US regarding the two, it will decide to do things with them based on other motivations it likely has…

That’s my fear in a nutshell — and why I’ve been advocating the US government make a big deal out of them being held.

….and secondarily, I also see putting pressure on NK on this issue could help the US in other areas — where it is trying to pressure the North in general. The idea being that the more heat the North faces on a string of issues, the better the chance we have of forcing them to reform in key areas…

Indifference only seems to make sense if we believe that the North will quickly hand the two women over once it sees it can’t gain money and resources for holding them.

It only makes sense if you believe that the two women are going to be released no matter what.

To me, that is a gamble.

I can easily picture these two women being held for years and even never being heard from again.

The North is the kind of regime that kidnaps Japanese citizens using submarines and commandos just to teach its spies the Japanese language and customs.

Then years later, stubbornly holds onto some of these abductees despite Japan’s willingness to pay to get them back.

How hard is it to imagine that Pyongyang might in fact decide to keep a hold on these two women?

And isn’t it more likely that indifference and silence from Washington will make holding them and torturing them easier for Pyongyang to do???

Sonagi said,

June 21, 2009 @ 4:34 pm

Public silence is not the same as indifference.

As much as I feel for the plight of these women and their families, I do not consider the imprisonment of these two journalists a top priority for the State Department. It is first and foremost a problem for Current TV to solve. North Korea’s recent nuclear developments are a far more important concern demanding immediate attention from our government.

Belinda said,

June 21, 2009 @ 4:42 pm

While the National Geo. doc no doubt did embarrass the North Korean government, it wasn’t a huge attention getter in the US. Here’s a site that thinks that Laura’s being punished for Lisa. http://theparis-sf.com/did-north-korea-arrest-laura-ling-for-her-sister%E2%80%99s-documentary/

usinkorea said,

June 21, 2009 @ 5:38 pm

Public silence is not the same as indifference.

True. But, what are the chances Pyongyang will take public silence as indifference? Fairly high, I’d think.

North Korea’s recent nuclear developments are a far more important concern demanding immediate attention from our government

But, how is paying attention and making an issue out of the holding of these two women going to hamper progress on the nuke issue?

It certainly won’t stymie any progress currently underway - because there is none.

All approaches to Pyongyang are dead in the water, and we have every reason to believe that the Obama administration has in mind to take a tougher line with Pyongyang.

How could making an issue of the two reporters harm that?

As I noted in the earlier comments, it seems more likely putting pressure on NK about these reporters could easily work to enhance international public pressure on Pyongyang concerning these other, more important issues: nuke testing and ICBM development and nuclear programs.

If I could see where there is a good chance taking up the issue of the two reporters would greatly retard progress on other issues, I’d agree it isn’t worth it.

But I don’t think that is the case.

Of course, if the US government doesn’t really care - if it doesn’t even want to waste the energy on an effort — none of this makes a difference anyway…

Belinda said,

June 23, 2009 @ 6:20 pm

State Dept confirms that they cross the border.

http://liberatelaura.wordpress.com/2009/06/23/betrayed-at-the-border/

nkmatters said,

June 24, 2009 @ 12:36 am

interesting that this info is released on a congress woman’s website…i’m sure it was intended to go out this way rather than through the state department daily briefings.

in any case, how irresponsible and reckless of ling and lee.

that said, the north korean judicial system is still a joke and there is no legitimate reason for holding the two.

Greg said,

June 24, 2009 @ 12:33 pm

The US cannot be tough on NK with the two journalists used as bargaining chips.

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