Alejandro Cao de Benós Interview – Part 3
This week, Cao informs us how he maintained his porcine figure even as he watched North Koreans starve to death all around him, and explains that The Great Confiscation was designed to foil widespread foreign counterfeiting of the North Korean won, for which there would seem to be as much incentive as inventing imitation tofu. Cao also says that the food situation in North Korea these days is just peachy, which is rather remarkable statement, given that not even Kim Jong Il has the temerity to suggest as much anymore.
Here are links to Part 1 and Part 2. As always, many thanks to our friend Enzo Reale for conducting this interview and allowing me to publish it in English here. There are no edits to the questions or answers, except that I put Enzo’s questions into italics for clarity. Don’t forget to check out Enzo’s blogs — 1972 and Asiaeditorni.
Alejandro Cao de Benos explains North Korea with all the gentle, self-assured credibility of RuPaul performing The Vagina Monologues, which is what makes him so entertaining, if not necessarily enjoyable, to read.
How would you describe North Korea’s economic system?
A system of state and collective ownership based, wherever possible, on economic self-sufficiency. The state allocates its assets to the people in an egalitarian manner. Agriculture represents 60 percent of the whole economy, the rest is heavy industry, especially military.
The great famine of the years 1995-1998 would have caused, according to some sources, between one and two million deaths. Are these figures true?
There are no official figures but personally I think the numbers didn’t exceed 80,000 dead.
Which were the causes of famine? In what scale did Pyongyang’s government contribute to the crisis with errors or omissions in economic or aid management?
The government did not make any mistakes. On the contrary, how to explain that since 1948 to 1995 didn’t happen anything comparable? In the ’80s the economy of the North was stronger than that of the South and among socialist countries we were one of the most prosperous. The real causes of the crisis were the end of the communist bloc ““ with the consequent difficulties in adapting ourselves to a different logic than we were used to ““ and, above all, natural disasters that hit the country.
What do you remember about that period?
I saw people dying, of course. Even without eating, people worked up to 20 hours a day to help the country’s recovery. Many of them died while working. There was no heating, no electricity, no running water. I remember all the shops closed in Pyongyang, where only the Public Distribution System was functioning. I remember a colleague in the ministry with her hands on her stomach, she hadn’t eaten anything since the day before. I fed on a tomato, an onion and a piece of frozen bread, provided by the Red Cross. Contrary to what international media generally say, in the countryside people suffered and died less than in the cities because every peasant family was given a small plot of land for personal use, where it was possible to grow vegetables and breed cattle. In the northern part of the country, where for climatic reasons people could not grow anything, the crisis hit harder.
How is today the food situation in the country?
The World Food Program (WFP) is launching regular warnings because it’s interested in doing so. On the contrary, how could they collect so much money? The same goes for the FAO. Actually, even from satellite photos you can see how this year’s harvest has been much better. Furthermore, we are modernizing the equipment for agricultural work and standardizing the characteristics of the land. There is no food emergency in the country now and things can only get better.
What evidence can you produce of what you say?
I regularly visit the country far and wide, from north to south, from east to west. I see cooperatives, hospitals, farms.
Can you visit the whole national territory?
No, there are military areas where access is forbidden to everyone. But I know very well people’s life and every day I can see positive changes: more domestic products, snacks, chips, cookies and more consumer goods.
While the North Koreans were starving, you were taking foreign delegations to visit the regime’s architectural works, the imposing monuments to the ideology and even a gigantic bowling alley. Then there were military spending, luxury watches, stocks of cognac for Kim Jong-il. How can you defend the priorities of the regime and your role in supporting them in that special moment of your country’s history?
The KFA started to organize visits to the country in 2000, when the crisis was already over. The buildings were built mostly in the 80s, when the economy was in good health. So, for example, the construction of the Ryugyong hotel stopped when the government decided to allocate the funds to other priorities. Moreover, all building materials come from within, we don’t import anything and don’t spend anything. About cognac, Kim Jong-il doesn’t drink alcohol, so it’s a mere speculation.
Is it true that Kim Jong-il has ordered the closure of all small private businesses that arose after the famine and that the regime tolerated even though formally illegal?
There are no private activities in North Korea, there is no alternative to the socialist economy. All the kiosks or stalls you can see in the cities or villages are state-owned: the state delegates certain categories of people to manage them, for social purposes. This way, people feel useful to the society and socialize with neighbours. It’s true that during the food crisis the state opened the so-called open-markets, especially in urban areas, an experiment that had nothing to do with private activities. Every state company had the opportunity to set their own prices within a margin fixed by the state, an embryonic form of competition to try to invigorate the economy. Now these open-markets are no longer needed and they will be closed.
What do you personally think about private property?
It depends on the country and on the system. For me the collectivity is more important than the individual and North Korean state is now fully representing the interests of the whole society.
Last December North Korean government decided the revaluation of the won. What are the reasons for this monetary reform?
First, the goal is to make the won comparable to the dollar or the euro, by removing a lot of zeros. But the fundamental reason is fighting the counterfeiting of currency. In Italy, for example, a gang that printed millions of fake won was recently dismantled.
But the won is not a currency used in the international circuits, why to fake it?
Many people think they can change it with international currency or they send won to China to sell them to Korean dealers.
According to available sources, the limit of convertible money was at first 100,000 won per person but short after it was fixed in 500,000. Are you aware that this partial re-adjustment was tied to some episodes of popular protest that followed the revaluation?
As far as I know there wasn’t any limit of convertibility though, of course, every situation was carefully examined to fight irregularities and punish capitals accumulation. Moreover, North Korean banking system is one of the most flexible in the world: not only there are no taxes on personal gains but also non-residents can open a bank account.
I’m sure you have the opportunity to talk to many people. How has the average citizen received the monetary reform?
When I go back to Pyongyang, I will speak to the citizens about this subject.
In short, can you explain how does the health system work?
Healthcare is free for all. In the national hospitals the aid is immediate. But there’s more: each month every family receives a visit from a doctor who monitors the health of each member. It ‘s system of preventive medicine. The number of doctors is very high so we can meet the technological shortcomings that, unfortunately, still exist. Where it’s possible we use traditional remedies in accordance with oriental tradition.
What do school and university programs consist of?
Compulsory education until children come of age, free access to university, no illiteracy. School programs provide political studies for ideological guidance but also traditional subjects, otherwise the country could not progress from a scientific point of view and, for example, could not produce intercontinental missiles.
According to the official iconography, Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il are considered like gods or demigods. Their pictures hang not only in public spaces but also in every house. Pins with their effigies are compulsory in adults’ clothing. As a Westerner, how do you judge this cult of personality?
This is not cult of personality. I would rather say that people follow the teachings of a Master. In Asia, teacher and father figures are much more important than in the West and North Korea has entirely kept this form of respect towards the guide. Kim Il-sung is the father of our society but no one would ever call him a god, because everyone knows that he is dead and that his son is mortal too. He’s a god in the same way Christians consider Jesus Christ their Master.
I once saw a documentary – I think it was on National Geographic Channel – where some adoring people thanked the icons of the Great and the Dear Leader for having returned them the sight. What do you think of such emotional displays?
That report was looking for sensationalism and the facts were described out of context. Patients were giving thanks to our leaders for creating a system that allowed them to regain sight through an operation. A system where the surgeon didn’t operate the king or a privileged member of the Party but a simple peasant.
The official website of the DPRK, that you created, contains an unconditional exaltation of the Great and the Dear Leader. Do you think Kim Jong-il is infallible? If not, can you tell me when – in your opinion – the Dear Leader made any mistakes?
Certainly he made mistakes but since I arrived in North Korea I haven’t seen any. I cannot blame anything to Kim Jong-il, whose conduct is the example that preserves the system. I’ve noticed mistakes in other Party officials but not in our leader.
Were you already in North Korea when Kim Il-sung died? Wasn’t his funeral an unbelievable episode of mass fanaticism?
No, I was in Spain. It was a show of people’s unity and love towards the leader, or the Father. Kim Il-sung always treated North Koreans like his children, and personally adopted thousands of orphans. That expression of pain was the despair of a son for the death of his father. There was nothing orchestrated in that event, everything was spontaneous and a North Korean might feel insulted if anyone expressed doubts about his behaviour.
How often do you meet Kim Jong-il?
I personally met him just once, in 2003, shortly after I received my imposition. But I sit next to him in military parades and we keep in regular contact through official reports or by email. Many times he nods me in greeting during official events.
What is his current health state?
He’s fine but like all elderly people he can sometimes suffer from some ailment. Many lies have been told in recent months, for example it’s absolutely untrue that he had brain surgery. In North Korea only two people know Kim Jong-il’s health state. It’s a state secret.
In the last months has there ever been a power vacuum in North Korea?
The system is perfectly structured in case of Kim Jong-il’s death. There is a chairman of the People’s Assembly, which is already the president of the nation and represents the people. Also the National Defense Commission, presided by the same Kim Jong-il, provides for a vice-president that could perform the task. There would be no revolutions or coups d’état because the level of social cohesion prevents them. Obviously, the charisma of the leader is not reproducible.
Let’s talk about succession. According to main sources Kim Jong-un ““ Kim Jong-il’s third-born – is in pole position. Are just speculations or there is some truth?
There is no appointed successor and no signs of an imminent leadership change. Kim Jong-il is in power because the people wanted it, not because he was designated by his father. North Koreans would never accept a leader imposed from above, nor could I if he hadn’t a well known trajectory behind his shoulders.
Excuse me, I fear I don’t understand…
Even in his childhood, Kim Jong-il wore military uniform and lived with the soldiers. People have always seen him as a potential leader and he has always felt a deep responsibility to help his father. A charismatic figure, people welcomed him as substitute of the Eternal President. There was nobody else like him.
Will the army remain loyal to the line dictated by the Party or independent initiatives are predictable?
Loyal, without any doubt, because the Party is everywhere, even in the ranks of the army.
Why does North Korean army need a million soldiers?
To protect the country against a superpower like the United States. It’s thanks to our army that North Korea has been able to survive.
What is the level of satisfaction among the soldiers? Are there cases of desertion or mutiny?
I have many friends in the army and I can assure that our divisions are compact around the Party and its leader. There are no factions or frictions. Even if there was anybody who thought otherwise, it would be very difficult to stand against the whole society. The main fear in North Korea is social rejection.
Don’t you think that sometimes North Koreans are also afraid of their government?
No, people see the government as a benevolent entity. I myself would be much harder in some cases. Government, people and army are one thing.
Are there police forces in the streets?
They’re not necessary. In a society free of social problems, conflicts, extremism, drugs, prostitution, in a society that regulates itself, every cohesion breaking will be corrected by the citizens themselves. There are very few people in jail and generally they have mental problems.
Do you have in North Korea a secret service comparable to the Soviet KGB or the Stasi in former East Germany?
There is an intelligence service acting under the supervision of the Ministry of Public Security that is responsible for preventing security threats coming from abroad. But it isn’t a police force charged with monitoring the population, because we don’t have such problems. In North Korea, every citizen is a supervisor who voluntarily undertakes to control the behaviour of his neighbours.
Where was Kim Jong-il born, in a Russian village or on Mount Paektu?
On Mount Paektu, where guerrilla forces were acting. In Russia there is nothing remembering his birth, instead Mount Paektu is full of memorabilia.
The history of communism is full of bloodshed, poverty and oppression. In light of the collapse of communist systems almost everywhere, what is the basis of your unconditional defence of this ideology?
Communist massacres weren’t greater than those provoked every day by capitalist systems. Just look at what happened in Yugoslavia at the end of communist rule. Before all races lived together without problems, then it became a hell. It’s a big lie that communism was a tragedy: it is true, instead, that in enforcing communist ideology some people made mistakes. My defence is based on the pursuit of an egalitarian society where men aren’t exploited by other men, and all means of production belong to the people. The socialism I believe in, the North Korean version, brings together the whole society and everyone takes part in the revolution.
What do you think about the great communist leaders in history: Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot?
Stalin and Mao were great revolutionaries. But the Cultural Revolution was a mistake. Stalin was able to integrate inside the Union different races and cultures and opposed the Nazis. Certainly both made mistakes, particularly from the spiritual point of view. I don’t want to talk about Pol Pot, he was a tragedy and nothing else.
Why North Korean communist system has not collapsed like the others?
Because of our ideology, that doesn’t exclude but assimilate. For example, China or the Soviet Union declared war on religion. We have integrated religious people within the Party. But, above all, it’s thanks to the personality of our leaders. Kim Il-sung was the greatest communist leader in history.
Do you believe that North Korea could be a model for other nations?
Yes I do, although it would be impossible to transfer the model to other national realities without adjusting it to the different contexts.
In what aspects is North Korean model better than the rest of political systems?
In its ability to assure the satisfaction of the basic needs of human beings through the action of the government, seen as a benefactor of the people. In the elimination of corruption through the redistribution of economic resources to the people.
Please, explain me the distinctive elements of Juche ideology.
The Juche is an original idea based on North Korean culture and tradition, not free from religious influences, even Buddhist. The spiritual sphere contributes to the originality of a philosophy that, for this very reason, could not work elsewhere. The inclusion of artists and scientists in the Party caused many problems to Kim Il-sung in his relations with other communist countries.
Do you think people exactly know what is it?
Yes, without any doubt. Everyone would be able to explain it, from a three years old child to an elder in his eigthies. People study and absorb the Juche Idea every day.
(End Part 3)