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China: We Have No Dissidents!

CHINA declared on Thursday it had ‘no dissidents’, just hours after a Beijing court upheld an 11-year jail term for one of the country’s top pro-democracy voices. ‘There are no dissidents in China,’ foreign ministry spokesman Ma Zhaoxu told reporters at a regular news briefing. [AFP, via Singapore Straits Times]

Either they just strayed into Alejandro Cao de Benos’s alternative reality, or I just didn’t know they’d been there all along.

23 Responses

  1. There really aren’t many voices of dissent here. I’ve lived in China for more than two years; only visited NK for a few days. My stay in NK, however, was long enough for me to tell that they were two very different animals. In China, personal freedom, as long as you don’t criticize the government in public (notice that is what the two individuals referenced in the article stand accused of), and economic freedom is almost unlimited. Most people are happy with the technocrats in Beijing and the unprecedented economic progress that has resulted. This is a country with millenia of being racked by internal wars and chaos that allowed them to be conquered by weaker neighbors–this experience is engrained in their collective consciousness and part of them craves for a benevolent leader, which they find, in different forms, in Beijing and the U.S. The attitude towards Americans here, generally, is much much more positive than in S. Korea.

    I haven’t met any genuine “dissenters” here. At this point, most Chinese are heavily pro-stability. Once their standards of living increase a bit more and the economic development stalls, I believe that will change. However, it won’t be for some time.

    By the way, love your website. This is the only place I’ve found genuine discussion on NK issues.

  2. biff wrote:

    In China, personal freedom, as long as you don’t criticize the government in public (notice that is what the two individuals referenced in the article stand accused of), and economic freedom is almost unlimited.

    That sounds an awful lot like pre-1987 South Korea.

  3. My stay in NK, however, was long enough for me to tell that they were two very different animals.

    China does look good compared to its neighbor just like I look hot compared to Beth Ditto.

    In China, personal freedom, as long as you don’t criticize the government in public (notice that is what the two individuals referenced in the article stand accused of), .

    …I haven’t met any genuine “dissenters” here.

    Do you think there’s a cause-effect relationship?

    The attitude towards Americans here, generally, is much much more positive than in S. Korea.

    More positive, yes. Much, much, much more so? I don’t think so.

  4. Sonagi:

    Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Let me respond to your comments in turn:

    China does look good compared to its neighbor just like I look hot compared to Beth Ditto.

    –Think about where China was 30 years ago. It was worse than Beth Ditto… It was like NK bad. So it’s at least progress.

    Do you think there’s a cause-effect relationship?

    –Not really. People could express their dissent in private very easily. Go find some young Chinese Chinese (not jaded Chinese Americans) in the U.S. Most of them aren’t for overthrow in Beijing even after a little time seeing the States. I honestly don’t think it would help people’s lives now. Which is why the situation is so different with KJI and NK.

    More positive, yes. Much, much, much more so? I don’t think so.

    –A lot of this is a function of Americans in China being primarily wealthy businesnmen, while those in Korea are mostly poor, scrappy soldiers and English teachers, but that’s my feeling, you know.

    I’m off to Hangook again in a few hours here.. gonna get some shuteye. 그럼.. Happy 설날!

  5. OK, here’s an extract and sloppy translation from the Singapore reporter’s version of Ma’s quote. Bold text is the editor’s explanation of the word as “someone having different political views or a person with unusual views”, not the PRC spokesman:

    “中国不存在dissident（持不同政见者或异见人士），我们只有依法办事，只有罪犯，非罪犯的区别。”

    　　马朝旭在回答美国之音记者提问时解释说：“关于dissident 的定义，你的英语应该比我还好，但是我不想就这一个定义跟你进行讨论，你肯定找不到一个大家都能同意的定义，在我看来， 这个词在中国是不合适的。这一类人，你所描述的这一类人，是不是在中国存在，这个你自己可以做出判断。但是，根据我的理解，这个词在这里使用是不合适的。”

    “China doesn’t have ‘dissident[s]’, we only have people doing things according to the law; we only have a difference between criminals and people who are not criminals.”

    Mao Zhaoxu said in response to a VOA reporter: “Regarding the definition of ‘dissident,’ your English is surely better than mine, but I don’t want to continue to debate this definition with you. You really wouldn’t be able to find a big group of people who could agree on this. In my view, this word doesn’t suit China. Whether or not China has this type of person, this kind of person which you just described, is something you can come to your own conclusions on. But, according to my understanding, to use this word here isn’t appropriate.”

    Anyway, this little extra padding probably doesn’t change much but at this point One Free Korea has a better working version of the quote than AFP, which makes me feel better anyway. But maybe I shouldn’t. After all, articles like this really make Bill Gertz’s day.

  7. I think I’ll wander over to some Chinese forums for reactions to Ma’s remarks and practice my reading comprehension of sarcasm and dry humor.

    Go find some young Chinese Chinese (not jaded Chinese Americans) in the U.S. Most of them aren’t for overthrow in Beijing even after a little time seeing the States.

    I found plenty of real Chinese people, young and old, rich and working class during my 4-year stay in China. Not desiring to overthrow the government does not equate with general satisfaction of it. The Chinese government censors the media, carefully monitors government-approved organizations including established religions, and imprisons government critics precisely because these strategies are effective in maintaining a 和谐社会 (harmonious society) with Chinese characteristics.

    A lot of this is a function of Americans in China being primarily wealthy businesnmen, while those in Korea are mostly poor, scrappy soldiers and English teachers, but that’s my feeling, you know

    It’s not my feeling. No US soldiers in China, of course, but plenty of English teachers and other assorted interesting characters. Koreans complain about unqualified English teachers while their neighbor across the Yellow Sea hands out teaching visas to any native speaker with a high school diploma. Chinese schools and universities are havens for unemployed Canadians who never finished college.

  8. Many Chinese have complaints, gripes and grievances against the government. My understanding is that overall people are pretty satisfied with the central government however that can not be said of the provincial and local governments. Rampant corruption has been the No.1 gripe for most people. However that doesn’t mean these people are dissidents as they have no desire to fundamentally change/overthrow the government. By western definition there are certainly dissidents in China, not in great numbers and most likely have already been locked up by the paranoia Chinese government.

    Once again Adam, great point. Many self-proclaimed “journalists” and bloggers simply don’t have the abilities and integrity that you and many others do to even try to paint a more accurate picture. It’s definitely much more convenient and easier for them to fall back on people’s popular preconceptions and assumptions.

  9. “However that doesn’t mean these people are dissidents as they have no desire to fundamentally change/overthrow the government.”

    Where on earth did you get this definition? Neither Wiki, Merriam-Websters, Princeton’s Word Net Web, nor any other definition appearing on the first page of Google search results identifies “dissidents” as seeking to “overthrow the government.” I believe the English term for such a person is a rebel. Adam’s and Juche’s massaging of Ma’s remarks stand in contrast to the sarcastic ridicule of Chinese netizens. In a twist on the American saying “If the government outlaws guns, only outlaws will have guns,” Chinese netizens are wryly noting that “in China there are only crimes and criminals.” The quote is all over Twitter. I wonder if at some point it will appear in the Chinese domestic press.

  10. There is no dissent in a socialist society, because there is no reason for it. In a socialistic paradise such as the DPRK, you have true democracy, and a true government by the people.

  11. Yes, we have no bananas — nor Uighurs, nor Tibetans, nor Vietnamese, nor Swatownese, nor Manchurians, nor North Korean refugees (oops, true — if they dissent, they go right back)… and no Han would dream of thinking for himself.

  12. And I forgot– if Taiwan is indeed merely a province, then none of the Taiwanese dissent at all. Yeah, right. On a more serious note, isn’t this official statement by Ma Zhaoxu of the Foreign Ministry a de facto admission of Taiwan’s separate status from that of China?

  13. @Sonagi, there’s a good gallery of pics from the milieu outside Tan Zuoren’s sentencing on Picasa. It would be nice if someone accorded the same treatment to the Waijiaobu/Foreign Ministry press briefings so that I didn’t have to go looking for this stuff and then potentially come off as some CCP apologist just for scraping it on the wall. As for the Twitter action, I’ve failed to follow it, but I would hope Ai Weiwei is thundering away like his old man did against the Japanese (and the anti-Rightist campaign until it sent him to Gansu to clean toilets). Basically Suddeutsche Zeitung, the the German newspaper which probably outpaces the Washington Times in its rhetorical support for Chinese dissidents, summed it up best with an article entitled “When the Truth Becomes Subversion.”

    And I’m loving the italics today; I think it’s Joshua’s way of keeping everyone on their toes.

  16. 单一自由韩国没有html异见人士. 只有标签罪，非罪的区别。

  17. Sonagi,

    What is your definition of “dissident”? In your opinion are those complaining Chinese dissidents? How about those anti-2MB people? Dissidents? Wow, too many then!

  18. My definition of a dissident is anyone whose incarceration by the Chinese government leaves “speechless” someone with a username “Juchechosunmanse.”

  20. Sonagi,

    Does not agreeing with a specific action/policy of the Chinese government make me a dissident?

    JS,

    What if I am not happy with either party? What if I am smart enough to know that voting for the independent candidate is basically meaningless? Ad the Dems and the GOP that different?

  21. Asian Americans who fought Communism in their home countries usually vote Republican, with the exception of Chinese Americans. Koreans, Vietnamese, Taiwanese, and Filipinos in America support the Republican Party, which is much more against communism than the Democratic Party. Chinese Americans on the other hand vote overwhelmingly Democrat. It seems that the Chinese Americans are not fiercely against communism as other Asian American groups.

  22. @Juche:

    Being rendered speechless in reaction to the Chinese government locking up a critic makes you not a dissident but naive. Your expressions of indignation in that blog entry were so cute.